Page 3 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast
Results 21 to 30 of 44

Thread: First Safe Questions

  1. #21
    CGN Regular mobgma's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Edmonton
    Posts
    325
    Read a good article on thetruthaboutguns blog. See below.

    "Nathan asks:

    I’m in the market for a gun safe, and have been reading as much as I can about the topic, but still am not sure which way to go. I thought a story/review by one of your writers about their experiences with safes might be helpful to folks. Is it worth going big $$$ for a name brand or saving some coin and getting a cheaper one from a big box store? Are electronic locks better/worse than dial combination locks? How much fire protection should I get? Any brands to stay away from? How much weight can I put on the second floor of my house safely? Can I put a safe in an unheated garage?

    I don’t personally have any experience with safes, but I do have a rather extensive background in risk analysis and lockpicking. And this, my friends, is a risk analysis question.


    Gun safes are like an insurance policy — you’re setting out some money now so that you don’t lose all of your stuff later. That much is common sense, but how much should you invest? Is it worth it to get the super deluxe gun safe? In order to get to that number analysts like to use something called the “annualized loss expectancy” and extrapolate from there.

    Annualized loss expectancy is a fancy word for how much money you should expect to lose from something every year based on the national average. You can calculate it pretty easily for things like air accidents and terrorist attacks, but surprisingly it gets a little complicated for guns. The reason is that while we can calculate out how often (on average) you can expect your guns to be stolen the actual value of those guns varies so wildly that a standard figure is useless. So instead I’m going to take a more personalized approach.

    Let me set the ground work first. FYI, these are going to be back-of-the-envelope*calculations*so take the*results*with a grain of salt, but the method is rock solid and should be used to figure out this for yourself.

    The best numbers I could find report that 189,000 firearms are stolen every year. Another source claims about 80 million people own a gun in the United States. That works out to roughly a 0.24% chance that your guns will be stolen in a given year.

    Similarly shoddy sources report that 397,650 dwelling fires happen every year, and while not every fire results in property damage it’s a good enough number for me. The census bureau says that there are 131,704,730 dwellings in the US, meaning the chance of your residence being involved in a fire is 0.3%.

    Since these events are joined by an “OR” operator (your gun can be stolen OR burned) we add the two percentages together to get 0.54%. By itself that doesn’t tell us much, so we have to plug in a couple of things.

    First we need the actual ALE, so multiply that number by the replacement value of your current arsenal — how much it would cost if you were to buy everything factory fresh. For me that’s right about $15,000 counting only firearms and not accessories and equipment, so my ALE is about $81. I should expect to lose $81 every year to firearms theft.

    That may not seem right at first glance, but that’s because the ALE is cumulative. If nothing is stolen and then my prized $3k Wilson Combat 1911 goes walkabout in 38 years I will have exactly met my ALE, since the combined expected loss for all those years is more than the replacement value of the gun.

    The next number to plug in is how long you expect the security measures to last you. For me I’d expect a safe to last me a good 20 years, so I multiply my ALE by 20 and I come up with $1,620. Statistically speaking I should spend at least $1,620 on security because that’s the amount of money I would lose anyway in those years from theft if I had done nothing.

    Now that we have a budget we can take a look at what’s out there, and in order to find the one that’s the right fit for you we need to scope your threat. It’s nearly impossible to account for every variation of attacker and fire scenario, so instead we narrow down the probable scenarios to the most likely set and work from there. And to make things easy we’re only going to talk about fire and theft.

    For theft, the things you have to think about most are means and time. Safes are designed to slow down attackers and require a certain level of equipment, but if given enough time and resources any safe can be successfully cracked. The question you have to ask yourself is how long will an attacker have to crack your safe, and what will they have with them? Personally, I see two scenarios here:

    A burglar randomly chooses to break into your house when you’re not there. They stumble across your gun safe and decide to attempt to break it open. They have only the tools they brought with them plus anything they can find (and use) in your home. They don’t know when you will be back so their attempt will be rushed and relatively unskilled, opting to steal the flat screen instead.
    The attacker has been watching your moves for days, plotting your habits and figuring out when you won’t be home. They bring sophisticated equipment and a trained hand. In other words, you’re screwed.
    You can pretty easily guess which category you fall into. If you lead a relatively low profile life and don’t open carry your M249 then chances are you’ll get a call from Mr. #1. But if you’re like our Fearless Leader who loves talking shop then #2 might be on the menu. The neighborhood you live in, the kind of car you drive, and the size of your dwelling can also influence which type of attacker chooses your home.

    The common theme with both of these attack types is time. The more time the attacker has the more likely they are to succeed. So personally, rather than spending tons of money on that Fort Knox in your basement I’d invest in a good alarm system for your dwelling. Alerting the authorities immediately is the best way to keep your stuff safe, and while they may still be minutes away the acceptable quality safe you’ve*purchased*should probably keep them out until the cavalry arrives.

    Fire is a whole different beast, and since I started firefighter training I’ve gained a whole new perspective on it.

    The level of fire protection you need will depend on where you put the safe.

    Basement — This is the worst place for your safe. If your house burns down, just like a campfire the place that stays the hottest the longest will be the bottom (your basement). It’s also a ##### to get at to fight a fire, so if your basement is on fire you can probably kiss anything in it goodbye. Like all things this depends on your specific house design, but in general if you’re going for a basement placement you should focus your spending on fire protection.
    Upper Level — In general fires on the upper level aren’t as bad as fires in the basement, but due to the weight of the safe you have to think about the possibility of the safe falling through a weakened floor and landing in the basement anyway.
    Garage / Outbuilding — This is the best placement for a safe in terms of fire protection, but garages and outbuildings typically are less secure than the main residence and can increase the risk from theft. Fire protection should be a secondary concern in these locations.
    Safes are rated for temperature and duration, so a safe that is rated to last a short while at extreme temperatures will last much longer at lower temperatures.

    The last consideration is size. If you only have one handgun and keep it on you at all times, something like a small bedside safe might be a good idea to keep it secure from unauthorized users. But a safe that small can still be taken away, and once under someone else’s control can be opened at their leisure. Small safes should only be considered as temporary storage if you’re not going to be leaving the gun unattended in such a way that intruders can get at it for long periods of time.

    So, having said all that let me try and answer your direct questions:

    Is it worth going big $$$ for a name brand or saving some coin and getting a cheaper one from a big box store? Check your annualized loss expectancy and base your own answer off of that number.

    Are electronic locks better/worse than dial combination locks? Electronic locks allow quick and easy access to your guns, but they will fail if they run out of electricity or their mechanism melts. Mechanical combination locks generally stand up to heat much better, as well as the water that comes with putting out a fire, and there are no secret unlock combinations or backdoors possible. I’d go mechanical myself.

    How much fire protection should I get? Depends on where you’re putting your safe. For the basement you’re going to need every bit you can afford. For a garage you’re going to want to focus on harder to crack safes instead.

    Any brands to stay away from? Check the comments, our readers will doubtless have some answers for you. But personally I can’t recommend any.

    How much weight can I put on the second floor of my house safely? Depends on the construction of your house and what else is on that floor, but the standard “live load” maximums for a household is 40 pounds per square foot.

    Can I put a safe in an unheated garage? Yes. Your guns will just be colder in the winters, so knit them a sweater. Heat might also be an issue with wooden guns and their finish, so be aware."


    http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/201...ng-a-gun-safe/

  2. #22
    CGN Regular mamma's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Tartarus
    Posts
    319
    Your best bet is costco's for $350-$370 depending on store location. They are sold out most of the time though.

    Also similar or even bigger safe - "Stack-On 16 Gun Safe" - is currently on sale for $350 (50% off reg price $699) at Canadian Tire, at least in South Ontario - check your local April 6-12 flyer.

    Both are good choices.
    Last edited by mamma; 04-10-2012 at 12:04 AM. Reason: price correction

  3. #23
    Newbie
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Toronto,ON
    Posts
    2
    Quote Originally Posted by mobgma View Post
    Read a good article on thetruthaboutguns blog. See below.

    "Nathan asks:

    I’m in the market for a gun safe, and have been reading as much as I can about the topic, but still am not sure which way to go. I thought a story/review by one of your writers about their experiences with safes might be helpful to folks. Is it worth going big $$$ for a name brand or saving some coin and getting a cheaper one from a big box store? Are electronic locks better/worse than dial combination locks? How much fire protection should I get? Any brands to stay away from? How much weight can I put on the second floor of my house safely? Can I put a safe in an unheated garage?

    I don’t personally have any experience with safes, but I do have a rather extensive background in risk analysis and lockpicking. And this, my friends, is a risk analysis question.


    Gun safes are like an insurance policy — you’re setting out some money now so that you don’t lose all of your stuff later. That much is common sense, but how much should you invest? Is it worth it to get the super deluxe gun safe? In order to get to that number analysts like to use something called the “annualized loss expectancy” and extrapolate from there.

    Annualized loss expectancy is a fancy word for how much money you should expect to lose from something every year based on the national average. You can calculate it pretty easily for things like air accidents and terrorist attacks, but surprisingly it gets a little complicated for guns. The reason is that while we can calculate out how often (on average) you can expect your guns to be stolen the actual value of those guns varies so wildly that a standard figure is useless. So instead I’m going to take a more personalized approach.

    Let me set the ground work first. FYI, these are going to be back-of-the-envelope*calculations*so take the*results*with a grain of salt, but the method is rock solid and should be used to figure out this for yourself.

    The best numbers I could find report that 189,000 firearms are stolen every year. Another source claims about 80 million people own a gun in the United States. That works out to roughly a 0.24% chance that your guns will be stolen in a given year.

    Similarly shoddy sources report that 397,650 dwelling fires happen every year, and while not every fire results in property damage it’s a good enough number for me. The census bureau says that there are 131,704,730 dwellings in the US, meaning the chance of your residence being involved in a fire is 0.3%.

    Since these events are joined by an “OR” operator (your gun can be stolen OR burned) we add the two percentages together to get 0.54%. By itself that doesn’t tell us much, so we have to plug in a couple of things.

    First we need the actual ALE, so multiply that number by the replacement value of your current arsenal — how much it would cost if you were to buy everything factory fresh. For me that’s right about $15,000 counting only firearms and not accessories and equipment, so my ALE is about $81. I should expect to lose $81 every year to firearms theft.

    That may not seem right at first glance, but that’s because the ALE is cumulative. If nothing is stolen and then my prized $3k Wilson Combat 1911 goes walkabout in 38 years I will have exactly met my ALE, since the combined expected loss for all those years is more than the replacement value of the gun.

    The next number to plug in is how long you expect the security measures to last you. For me I’d expect a safe to last me a good 20 years, so I multiply my ALE by 20 and I come up with $1,620. Statistically speaking I should spend at least $1,620 on security because that’s the amount of money I would lose anyway in those years from theft if I had done nothing.

    Now that we have a budget we can take a look at what’s out there, and in order to find the one that’s the right fit for you we need to scope your threat. It’s nearly impossible to account for every variation of attacker and fire scenario, so instead we narrow down the probable scenarios to the most likely set and work from there. And to make things easy we’re only going to talk about fire and theft.

    For theft, the things you have to think about most are means and time. Safes are designed to slow down attackers and require a certain level of equipment, but if given enough time and resources any safe can be successfully cracked. The question you have to ask yourself is how long will an attacker have to crack your safe, and what will they have with them? Personally, I see two scenarios here:

    A burglar randomly chooses to break into your house when you’re not there. They stumble across your gun safe and decide to attempt to break it open. They have only the tools they brought with them plus anything they can find (and use) in your home. They don’t know when you will be back so their attempt will be rushed and relatively unskilled, opting to steal the flat screen instead.
    The attacker has been watching your moves for days, plotting your habits and figuring out when you won’t be home. They bring sophisticated equipment and a trained hand. In other words, you’re screwed.
    You can pretty easily guess which category you fall into. If you lead a relatively low profile life and don’t open carry your M249 then chances are you’ll get a call from Mr. #1. But if you’re like our Fearless Leader who loves talking shop then #2 might be on the menu. The neighborhood you live in, the kind of car you drive, and the size of your dwelling can also influence which type of attacker chooses your home.

    The common theme with both of these attack types is time. The more time the attacker has the more likely they are to succeed. So personally, rather than spending tons of money on that Fort Knox in your basement I’d invest in a good alarm system for your dwelling. Alerting the authorities immediately is the best way to keep your stuff safe, and while they may still be minutes away the acceptable quality safe you’ve*purchased*should probably keep them out until the cavalry arrives.

    Fire is a whole different beast, and since I started firefighter training I’ve gained a whole new perspective on it.

    The level of fire protection you need will depend on where you put the safe.

    Basement — This is the worst place for your safe. If your house burns down, just like a campfire the place that stays the hottest the longest will be the bottom (your basement). It’s also a ##### to get at to fight a fire, so if your basement is on fire you can probably kiss anything in it goodbye. Like all things this depends on your specific house design, but in general if you’re going for a basement placement you should focus your spending on fire protection.
    Upper Level — In general fires on the upper level aren’t as bad as fires in the basement, but due to the weight of the safe you have to think about the possibility of the safe falling through a weakened floor and landing in the basement anyway.
    Garage / Outbuilding — This is the best placement for a safe in terms of fire protection, but garages and outbuildings typically are less secure than the main residence and can increase the risk from theft. Fire protection should be a secondary concern in these locations.
    Safes are rated for temperature and duration, so a safe that is rated to last a short while at extreme temperatures will last much longer at lower temperatures.

    The last consideration is size. If you only have one handgun and keep it on you at all times, something like a small bedside safe might be a good idea to keep it secure from unauthorized users. But a safe that small can still be taken away, and once under someone else’s control can be opened at their leisure. Small safes should only be considered as temporary storage if you’re not going to be leaving the gun unattended in such a way that intruders can get at it for long periods of time.

    So, having said all that let me try and answer your direct questions:

    Is it worth going big $$$ for a name brand or saving some coin and getting a cheaper one from a big box store? Check your annualized loss expectancy and base your own answer off of that number.

    Are electronic locks better/worse than dial combination locks? Electronic locks allow quick and easy access to your guns, but they will fail if they run out of electricity or their mechanism melts. Mechanical combination locks generally stand up to heat much better, as well as the water that comes with putting out a fire, and there are no secret unlock combinations or backdoors possible. I’d go mechanical myself.

    How much fire protection should I get? Depends on where you’re putting your safe. For the basement you’re going to need every bit you can afford. For a garage you’re going to want to focus on harder to crack safes instead.

    Any brands to stay away from? Check the comments, our readers will doubtless have some answers for you. But personally I can’t recommend any.

    How much weight can I put on the second floor of my house safely? Depends on the construction of your house and what else is on that floor, but the standard “live load” maximums for a household is 40 pounds per square foot.

    Can I put a safe in an unheated garage? Yes. Your guns will just be colder in the winters, so knit them a sweater. Heat might also be an issue with wooden guns and their finish, so be aware."


    http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/201...ng-a-gun-safe/

    Intense read but very informative and understandable non the less thanks for the contribution

  4. #24
    CGN Ultra frequent flyer Tuco Pike's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    2,941
    You folks realize that it is against the law to make your house "break in proof" right? It is against the law to make your house strong like a fortress in case the police ever want to break in to search. Yes, this is true. Yes it is because of drug dealers and other criminals fortifying their hangouts. Yes, we are made to be victims of crime all the while criminals ignore those laws too. You should be able to make your house as fortified as you want, it is your personal private property, but no, not here in Canuckistan.

  5. #25
    Newbie
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    BC
    Posts
    15
    Quote Originally Posted by Tuco Pike View Post
    Stack on gun safes (yes the cheapie "cabinets" are safes) is all the you need to comply with the law. If it is locked and you have the key, no unauthorized kiddie is going to get in. If a criminal breaks in, they are going to get your guns no matter what they are in. Recall the incident a couple years ago where a guy named Mike Hargreaves had an actual vault, they still got in and stole his guns. And yes if you are wondering they did charge him with unsafe storage.
    This boggles my mind! How the hell can you be charged with unsafe storage when you have taken every step to be legal???

    Also, I just bought the 16 gun "Safe" from Cambodian Tire. I am undecided as to where exactly I want to put it in my house right now.
    Does it "legally" HAVE to be bolted to the floor or wall?
    If I don't will I be charged with unsafe storage?

  6. #26
    CGN Ultra frequent flyer HKMark23's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    The Far East
    Posts
    3,094
    My one bad (no guns involved) experience with safes (??) taught me a lesson.

    If you're intent upon gift wrapping your goods so that thieves will either make off with the whole shabang or else return in due course equipped to do so, just buy yourself a tin cabinet. One that screws to the floor or wall will fit this purpose nicely. Don't make it too hard to dislodge or they'll just tear your house all to fvck getting it out.

    If you want to thwart a thief, think heavy. You'll want a proper safe and they don't come for just a few hundred bucks. It should weigh at least 500 lbs empty and be difficult to get into (or out of) the house. This is experience talking.

    I'm as up for a bargain as the next guy but safes are one of those products which provide only what you pay for.
    "When you have made evil the means of survival, do not expect men to remain good. Do not expect them to stay moral and lose their lives for the purpose of becoming the fodder of the immoral. Do not expect them to produce, when production is punished and looting rewarded. Do not ask, 'Who is destroying the world?' You are." - Ayn Rand

  7. #27
    CGN Ultra frequent flyer
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    London Ontario
    Posts
    3,574
    ^^ That's it. It doesn't take much to create a pry point and rip anything out of the wall, especially if it's an interior wall with wood or steel studs (if it's steel stud, don't consider it secure).

    You can add weight to a tin box to make it harder to steal, but getting a real safe is a MUCH better idea. As I've said before and will continue to say for the rest of my days, buy from a local retailer. There's someone to answer questions who KNOWS about the thing, and someone to service it when it breaks. All things mechanical will break, eventually.
    Don't take anything I say too seriously, my sarcasm doesn't always come through in my typing.
    Those who don't understand history are doomed to repeat it.
    Preparedness trumps response every time

  8. #28
    Newbie normaltype's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    20
    I was also looking for a safe or cabinet but this changed my mind:
    http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/cfp-pcaf/f...posage-eng.htm

    Good info.

    Key to firearm storage is to render it inoperable and deter theft.

    For non-restricted you only need a trigger lock or cable lock, or remove bolt and lock it up

    OR

    lock in a cabinet, container or room that is difficult to break into.

    For Restricted and prohibited require trigger lock or cable lock AND vault, safe, or secure room. Automatic firearms must have bolts or bolt carrier removed and locked away separately.

    With that in mind, if all you intend to get is a safe to secure your guns, it must be a very good safe to comply with the law. The cheap safes (like stack on), I doubt they comply with the law as they are easily broken into. I'd advise using cable, trigger locks or locked room when using cheap safes. Second problem with the cheap safes is they are light and can easily be carried out of your house. Even if bolted to the floor or wall it wouldn't take much work to rip it out.

    I have trigger or cable locks (some have both) on all my guns, and I take my guns apart, remove bolts or barrels. Everything is stored in a locked room, in a locked house with a monitored alarm system. This is more than is required by law.

    So really, I only need a cabinet for storage and protection from dust. in which case a cheap safe like a stack on will do or even a display case.

    Having an alarm system is a good investment. Even just displaying monitored alarm system signs/stickers like Alarmforce or Brinks etc is a huge deterrent to thieves....they will pass on your house....not worth the trouble. Its easier, faster and less intimidating to try the next house that doesn't have any stickers or signs.

    Just my 2 cents.
    Last edited by normaltype; 09-14-2014 at 07:52 PM. Reason: grammar

  9. #29
    CGN frequent flyer
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Calgary, Alberta
    Posts
    1,316
    Can you please point out where the law calls for a "very good safe"?

    As a new gun owner, I find it very concerning that this is part of the law but the FA or CCC don't mention it. Such an oversight is pretty bad IMO, especially when the laws only mention that we need to store in a safe or vault or secure room.

  10. #30
    Newbie normaltype's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    20
    Quote Originally Posted by whiteoutjeeper View Post
    Can you please point out where the law calls for a "very good safe"?

    As a new gun owner, I find it very concerning that this is part of the law but the FA or CCC don't mention it. Such an oversight is pretty bad IMO, especially when the laws only mention that we need to store in a safe or vault or secure room.
    STORAGE OF NON-RESTRICTED FIREARMS

    5. (1) An individual may store a non-restricted firearm only if
    (a) it is unloaded;
    (b) it is
    (i) rendered inoperable by means of a secure locking device,
    (ii) rendered inoperable by the removal of the bolt or bolt-carrier, or
    (iii) stored in a container, receptacle or room that is kept securely locked and that is constructed so that it cannot readily be broken open or into; and
    (c) it is not readily accessible to ammunition, unless the ammunition is stored, together with or separately from the firearm, in a container or receptacle that is kept securely locked and that is constructed so that it cannot readily be broken open or into.
    (2) Paragraph (1)(b) does not apply to any individual who stores a non-restricted firearm temporarily if the individual reasonably requires it for the control of predators or other animals in a place where it may be discharged in accordance with all applicable Acts of Parliament and of the legislature of a province, regulations made under such Acts, and municipal by-laws.
    (3) Paragraphs (1)(b) and (c) do not apply to an individual who stores a non-restricted firearm in a location that is in a remote wilderness area that is not subject to any visible or otherwise reasonably ascertainable use incompatible with hunting.

    http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/r...age-2.html#h-3
    Last edited by normaltype; 09-15-2014 at 01:29 AM. Reason: Add link

Page 3 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •