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Thread: History of the m14s/m305 from Marstar- John, how about filling us in?

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deckard View Post
    There are many back stories and that is one. It's no more 'bashing' than people being syncophants. It's just a question. Answered.
    I trust you noted the " ; )".... suggesting an attempt at humour.

    I'm not a marstar fanboy (and have the responses from john to prove it).... but my thinking is that the quantity of norinco pistol mags- which is what you originally asked about- is a different thread than one about the history of the m305/m14s. john's brought it back to norinco or polytech firearms in general so i guess his reply fits the thrread.

  2. #32
    CGN Regular spacesaver's Avatar
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    I have to say that this is an entertaining thread!! :-) And I also know that it is about the history of Johns involvement with bringing the M305 to Canada. However I would be interested to learn about other stories concerning bringing Norinco products into Canada. Stories about problems encountered, neat firearms seen in the factories, any firearms that are in developement that are interesting. There must have been some neat goings on since Marstar started working with Norinco.
    Cheers!
    If you eliminate the impossible whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth-Spock

  3. #33
    CGN frequent flyer Kveldulf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spacesaver View Post
    I have to say that this is an entertaining thread!! :-) And I also know that it is about the history of Johns involvement with bringing the M305 to Canada. However I would be interested to learn about other stories concerning bringing Norinco products into Canada. Stories about problems encountered, neat firearms seen in the factories, any firearms that are in developement that are interesting. There must have been some neat goings on since Marstar started working with Norinco.
    Cheers!
    I agree entirely, especially about the "neat firearms". I have long hoped that Norinco would develop a semi-automatic only version of their Type 80 machine pistol and sell it here. Just imagine -- an updated version of the Mauser C96 "Broomhandle", complete with shoulder stock/holster! I once bought one of the originals from Marstar, one that had seen long service in China.

    This is just being nit-picky but you do realize that your sig, If you eliminate the impossible whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth-Spock, is really by Arthur Conan Doyle? Of course you do. Sorry.
    Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful.
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  4. #34
    CGN Ultra frequent flyer can14's Avatar
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    I remember when Allen Lever brought in the first sample Chinese M14. He showed it to me and I remember how much it looked like a military TRW M14. It had the same selector lock cap and trip bar. The wood was light in color and the finish was blue/black. When he ordered the guns with AL00000 #'s, the lock and trip were gone and the wood was darker.

  5. #35
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    I am constantly amazed at the lack of geo-political knowledge in Canada.

    The "Peoples Republic of China" (mainland) and "Republic of China" (Taiwan) have been deadly enemies since the 1949 evacuation of the Chinese government to Taiwan.

    Taiwan "RoC" built M14 rifles under license and used them as a standard service rifle into the 1990s.

    Mao "PRC" had M14 rifles with US manufacturers markings built and spread them into the Philippines (and other places) to arm communist insurgents with deniable weapons. The ammunition supplied had British manufacture markings.
    have been deadly enemies
    .. not so much now of course...lots of "cross border traffic" today.. and wouldn't be surprising if some of the US provided M14 "IP" ended up in an entrepreneurs hands in PRC

    Mao "PRC" had M14 rifles with US manufacturers markings built and spread
    this confuses me - I have read this too but cant find anywhere that the US government has made that claim - you'd think they would make an issue out of... or maybe the US made them to look like they were made in PRC and then shipped them to Taiwan so that their double agents could sell them to the PRC .. so that the PRC could give them to Philippine communists .. but the world would believe that they really came from the Americans or the Philippine Army etc etc etc --
    By the time that story gets unravelled could have as easily given them Chinese AK47's (like they gave the rest of the world) and let them just get on with the revolution ... no?? What was to be gained? Nobody was debating the existence of a communist party - and during that time period .. a commie was a commie was a commie.

    Its a good story but it doesnt make sense and US (or Philippine) Ordinance guys would have figured this out pretty quickly anyway. I can sure tell my two M305's arent "G.I." Wouldn't it be easier to just give them US currency to buy whatever they wanted - which I "suspect" the PRC is capable of printing lots.



    Sort of like the PRC trying to slip a fake James Bond and an Aston Martin into Europe...can't be done - hell one look under the PRC produced fake Aston to see it wasnt leaking oil out of every orifice would tell you right away that it wasn't produced in jolly old Great Britain...

  6. #36
    CGN Regular kirkf's Avatar
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    I am constantly amazed at the lack of geo-political knowledge in Canada.
    Lol. The world is a big place. With alot of history.
    Sorry if I didn't pass your minium requirements testing.

    Kirk
    Last edited by kirkf; 10-25-2012 at 05:36 PM.

  7. #37
    Member Drew-1664's Avatar
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    Truth be told, there was a friend of the late Rod Phillipsen/Gunsmith/Shooter's Unlimited in Burnaby, unfortunately I can't remember his name, but he lived in West Vancouver (was at his house twice) was an 'Entrepreneur' and in the late '70's he took a Springfield Armoury M1A to Norinco, among others, got the best quote from Norinco, and asked them to build a 'test run' of 100 "Exactly like this." I remember it VERY well, because he received them EXACTLY like the one he took over to them, he had 100 M1A copies with EXACTLY the same features and EXACTLY the same SERIAL NUMBER !
    He had to take them to the RCMP and get new serial numbers assigned for each one which was a major pain in the butt as you can imagine. HE took them to Lever and various other wholesalers, and being 1/2 to 1/3 (NOW 1/4 to 1/5th) the price of a Springfield, they sold like 'hot-cakes' of course. I wasn't interested because I already HAD a Springfield with a National Match 'over run' barrel and beautiful walnut stock, that I got for $800 in '79, that shot 'lights-out'! PLUS 20 and even 30 (didn't WORK very well) magazines at $18 ea., unfortunately it went to pay lawyers fees in second divorce, Serial no. 001001 ! ANYWAY, that's where they got the idea in the first place.
    BTW, before Alan's passing, he DID have some .45 'Broom-handles' from China. Very few, unfortunately I had NO money at the time. The Russians had supplied China with captured/surplus Broom-handles, their ally, the U.S. had supplied them with shiploads of .45 ACP, so with typical Chinese ingenuity they converted the 7.62 Broom handles and even some 7.62 Thompson's (!) to .45 ACP. No, they weren't 'American Eagle Luger' quality .45's, but they WERE .45 Broom handles !
    Those who forget History are bound to repeat it. Winston Churchill

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by AP View Post
    .. not so much now of course...lots of "cross border traffic" today.. and wouldn't be surprising if some of the US provided M14 "IP" ended up in an entrepreneurs hands in PRC

    this confuses me - I have read this too but cant find anywhere that the US government has made that claim - you'd think they would make an issue out of... or maybe the US made them to look like they were made in PRC and then shipped them to Taiwan so that their double agents could sell them to the PRC .. so that the PRC could give them to Philippine communists .. but the world would believe that they really came from the Americans or the Philippine Army etc etc etc --
    By the time that story gets unravelled could have as easily given them Chinese AK47's (like they gave the rest of the world) and let them just get on with the revolution ... no?? What was to be gained? Nobody was debating the existence of a communist party - and during that time period .. a commie was a commie was a commie.

    Its a good story but it doesnt make sense and US (or Philippine) Ordinance guys would have figured this out pretty quickly anyway. I can sure tell my two M305's arent "G.I." Wouldn't it be easier to just give them US currency to buy whatever they wanted - which I "suspect" the PRC is capable of printing lots.



    Sort of like the PRC trying to slip a fake James Bond and an Aston Martin into Europe...can't be done - hell one look under the PRC produced fake Aston to see it wasnt leaking oil out of every orifice would tell you right away that it wasn't produced in jolly old Great Britain...

    The US Gov wasn't really interested in Philippine Guerillas at the time the Chinese were trying to ship rifles to the Philippines (I say trying because it was more or less a disaster involving a ship sinking, etc). The reason they weren't interested was because they were still involved in Viet Nam, and there were enough US troops passing through the populated areas of the Philippines, combined with the co-operation of Ferdinand Marcos to make losing to Communist rebels virtually impossible. The guerillas in the Philippines were never anywhere near the threat of the Viet Cong. The first "AL" Norinco M14's actually cost more than a previous load of surplus M14's that were made in the US. Check the underside of early "AL" guns - there's sometimes some oddball stuff under there. The Norc rifles are most definitely not made on US equipment, any citizen of the ROC would be executed for selling defence technology to the PRC, of any kind. The history of the M14 and even the Chinese M14 is covered in CGN Different's definitive history of the M14.
    "In the days of my youth I was told what it means to be a man, Now I've reached that age if I do that stuff I'll end up in the can...."
    Apologies to Led Zep

  9. #39
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    Thanks Enefgee.. agreed. However may I propose one small amendment to your post:

    "any citizen of the ROC, who is caught, could be executed for selling defence technology to the PRC"

    Also I certainly agree that Different has produced an excellent treatise on the M14. I am not certain that he claims unequivocally that there were weapons produced by PRC masquerading as US made M14's for use by Philippine communists that sunk (or were deliberately submerged) etc but there is obviously an interesting story being told by mysterious people that Different relates. Frankly if I had a nickle for every "mysterious man" who claimed to be an ex "SBS" operative .. I would be a bloody rich man.

    Anyway we are lucky to have these firearms as they are excellent value .. as Hungry says ... "don't buy one ... BUY TWO!"

    Incidentally for Drew - 1664 ... if this chap that took the M1A's to China in the late '70's got his product before Bill C-17 in 1991 (and presuming they werent auto or CA) he probably wouldnt have needed unique serial numbers from the Mounties would he? Course not certain about this.

  10. #40
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    Interesting, thanks for the insight John.

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