Bad news for Ontario Moose Hunters

Typical MNR opinion of moose mortality, wind, wolves, weather vehicle strikes, native and non native harvest. BUT don't ever admit black bears have a huge impact especially since the spring bear season ended. Glad I don't hunt moose very seriously.
Darryl
 
First time moose hunting trip planned in 11A. Cabin all booked Should be a group of 6. Looking at last years guaranteed group sizes it was looking good for a tag or two. Now I'm not so sure.

What do you guys think? Should we be looking for a cabin in another wmu?
For a guaranteed tag in 11A you need 9 pool 1 applicants and 6 pool 1 applicants for a cow, none of the units are looking real rosy for a tag!
 
How can reducing the number of tags available, to help the population rebound, be considered bad news? Seems to me like it's good news that the MNR is doing their job and lowering the number of tags available when the population has taken a hit.
 
Typical MNR opinion of moose mortality, wind, wolves, weather vehicle strikes, native and non native harvest. BUT don't ever admit black bears have a huge impact especially since the spring bear season ended. Glad I don't hunt moose very seriously.
Darryl

I reviewed all 3 links and this is all I found for their reasoning behind lowering the number of tags:

"Factors such as harvest, predation (bears?), parasites, habitat condition and low calf numbers (many hunters shoot calves, no?) can all contribute to shifts in moose population.


"Ontario’s moose population has remained relatively stable over the past decade. However, most areas of northeastern Ontario — and the more accessible parts of northwestern Ontario — have recently been showing signs of decline."

More accessible area's showing declines in moose populations suggests people are more to blame than bears in those area's...
 
Also remember that "Moose Hunting" is also about getting out with your friends. Bird hunting, fishing and in some WMU`s Bear hunting is still open. It`s all fun to do and you can practice all sorts of field craft. Practice different animal calls, tracking, fire building/ starting skills in different weather conditions, try fishing as a survival skill with out a fishing rod. Make a competition among your group. Hunting isn`t just about the Hunt, it is about survival if you look at it the right way. We have come to depend on technology way to much and in the process of doing what I just mentioned a moose may just be curious enough to pop his head out for a nice quick clean humane kill shot.
Good luck to those successful in the draw and with the harvest.
 
How can reducing the number of tags available, to help the population rebound, be considered bad news? Seems to me like it's good news that the MNR is doing their job and lowering the number of tags available when the population has taken a hit.


I reviewed all 3 links and this is all I found for their reasoning behind lowering the number of tags:

"Factors such as harvest, predation (bears?), parasites, habitat condition and low calf numbers (many hunters shoot calves, no?) can all contribute to shifts in moose population.


"Ontario’s moose population has remained relatively stable over the past decade. However, most areas of northeastern Ontario — and the more accessible parts of northwestern Ontario — have recently been showing signs of decline."

More accessible area's showing declines in moose populations suggests people are more to blame than bears in those area's...

The problems are many. First, they do an aerial survey to count numbers of moose in herds during the winter time. This method of counting can be inaccurate in the extreme if done (as it normally is) by fixed wing aircraft. It is also normally done in a very small area of a WMU and a formula is then used to guess the actual number of moose in the area.

Second, predation. Cancellation of the spring bear hunt and the increase in predators that came with it certainly hurts the moose herds. Also, the laws making it so anywhere north of the French and mattawa rivers in Ontario you can only kill 2 wolves/coyotes every year has increased the number of predators in the wild. This also has an affect.

Third, parasites. One would think that having more predators praying on the moose, thus killing off the weak ones first so they couldn't spread disease to the healthy ones would be a good thing over all. This one has me stumped and I'm slightly sceptical about it having never seen it before in the wild. So I can't really say much about this one.

Fourth, low calf numbers. While I don't participate in the harvesting of calves, some hunters choose to. The wildlife biologists the MNR had working for them in the 80's when they brought in the system that we have now (that was going to double the size of ontario's moose herd, or so they promised) promoted bad science and we're still stuck under this ridiculous system today. How in the #### do you increase the size of the heard if 90% of the hunters out there are going after the babies? Not to mention the predator effect of the calves. It doesn't even come close to making sense. I should mention that the number of hunters that actually harvest calves is pretty low though. Most people are smart enough to see how messed up it is.

In the end, it should be noted that the MNR actually has no ####ing clue how many moose are in Ontario. They make a poorly educated guess at it, sure. But they have no honest idea about how many moose are in Ontario or the # harvested in the province every year. Indians don't report to them and tell them how many moose they kill. Nor do bears or wolves or coyotes.

About the only way to fix the problem is to reinstate the spring bear hunt (for good, not some feel good 2 year pilot project), open season with no bag limits for wolves/coyote north of the French and mattawa again. (I feel I should point out here that below the French and mattawa rivers the season is open year round and there are no bag limits. The deer population is flourishing. Imagine that?) And close the moose season down for 2 or 3 years to let the moose numbers rise while the predator population falls. It wouldn't be popular, but it would be effective.

If blame is to be laid at anyones door for the system and the moose population of Ontario, then it surely must rest at the foot of the MNR office door in Peterborough. It's hard to imagine a worse system to have to deal with, but rest assured, if anyone could find a more ####ed up system of management for moose, it would be the Ontario MNR.
 
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Stopped hunting for moose a few years back but have friends and family that go on a yearly basis.

What I can't understand, is the methodology of the MNR's tag allocation system. They want hunters to apply as a group, preferably with guaranteed group size (or more) members in each group. All my friends make serious plans and spend a lot of money to make it up North once a year. They meet or exceed their GGS Pool 1 numbers and get one maybe two tags amongst the 10 of them. EVERY year they are up hunting they meet up with multiple hunting groups consisting of 2 to 3 members each who apply as individuals and sometimes have 2 tags per three-member groups...

Let's say the GGS for a particular WMU is 7 for bull. The fairest way to allot the tags is give everyone with 7+ a tag, tags left over? give them to groups of 6, tags left over? give them to groups of 5...etc. Instead, the MNR gives out the tags to groups of 7+ and for the remaining tags they place all the remaining groups -including individuals- in a pot and select randomly. Hardly an incentive there for people to participate in the GGS system.
 
Dorian Gray, you summed it up so well that this thread is about over. Wouldn't it be nice if the powers that be would look at your common sense approach? Better chance of winning a game of pick up sticks using the cheeks or your a--! than that happening with Ontario's MNR.

Darryl
 
Stopped hunting for moose a few years back but have friends and family that go on a yearly basis.

What I can't understand, is the methodology of the MNR's tag allocation system. They want hunters to apply as a group, preferably with guaranteed group size (or more) members in each group. All my friends make serious plans and spend a lot of money to make it up North once a year. They meet or exceed their GGS Pool 1 numbers and get one maybe two tags amongst the 10 of them. EVERY year they are up hunting they meet up with multiple hunting groups consisting of 2 to 3 members each who apply as individuals and sometimes have 2 tags per three-member groups...

Let's say the GGS for a particular WMU is 7 for bull. The fairest way to allot the tags is give everyone with 7+ a tag, tags left over? give them to groups of 6, tags left over? give them to groups of 5...etc. Instead, the MNR gives out the tags to groups of 7+ and for the remaining tags they place all the remaining groups -including individuals- in a pot and select randomly. Hardly an incentive there for people to participate in the GGS system.

Your idea is completely unreasonable... if the MNR followed your plan, there would be no chance for a lone hunter to ever get a tag and probably not two or three either... the FAIREST method for tag allocation is the preference point system... each year you apply but do not receive a tag you receive one point... the person with the highest points in a unit for the season and ### they are applying for gets the tag... tags are allocated from the top down... this way everyone will get a tag when it is their turn to do so.
 
Your idea is completely unreasonable... if the MNR followed your plan, there would be no chance for a lone hunter to ever get a tag and probably not two or three either... the FAIREST method for tag allocation is the preference point system... each year you apply but do not receive a tag you receive one point... the person with the highest points in a unit for the season and ### they are applying for gets the tag... tags are allocated from the top down... this way everyone will get a tag when it is their turn to do so.

I agree 100% and I've been arguing this for years now.

This is the reply I got from Minister David Orazietti to a letter I sent regarding this:

"

Thank you for your e-mail regarding potential changes to Ontario’s moose management program. I appreciate receiving your suggestions and I am pleased to respond.



I understand your frustration on drawing bull tags on only two occasions in Wildlife Management Unit (WMU) 60 over the last 30 years. This unit is very popular with hunters, as I am sure you know. In 2012, almost 1,600 eligible hunters applied for 98 bull tags in that area.



Over time, thousands of hunters have shared their ideas about the moose draw individually or as part of various consultation efforts. While my ministry has heard a range of suggestions on how the system could be improved, many other hunters have told us that they are satisfied with the current system. We will consider the opinions that have been expressed, including your recent suggestions, should any further changes to the current moose draw process be contemplated. Any proposed changes would be accompanied by an opportunity to provide your input through formal public consultation.



Thank you for taking the time to write with your very thoughtful suggestions.



Sincerely,"

I copied the same letter to Laurie Scott, MNR critic, and never did get a response.
 
So the predators are cleaning up the moose and deer and you can't shoot predators up there unless you buy a tag.
The excess of bears from no spring hunt for years will clean up the few calves and fawns that will be born.

Our licence plates should say
"Ontario yours to recover"

But don't worry fellas the MNR (Ministry of No Results)
And premier gramma of Ontario probably have a plan.
Baa haa haa haa! Right
 
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Bears and wolves have had a devastating effect on the moose population around TB.

Cancellation of the spring bear hunt is coming home to haunt the fools that adopted it.

Wolves have made a huge comeback and not many are being taken by hunters which needs to change.
 
Before the "wolf tag" deer and moose hunters up here shot the murdering dogs on sight. Now that you need an extra tag most of the old timers let the brown skulking marauders escape. The local CO would be glad to ticket you, take your licence for a year and fine you 3000.00 for shooting one of those SOB's without a tag. What is happening to this province. Looks like a few years of shoot, shovel and shut up and partridge hunting for me......

Darryl
 
15B group size went from 2 to 7 pool 1 choice 1 applicants AND the number of bull tags was cut almost in half.
The odds of winning a moose tag are getting dangerously close to winning the Lotto Max jackpot with the cost of playing over 10 times what a lotto ticket costs
I may have to change my handle from Nipigon Jack to Ontario Moose Lottery Chump

The cost of the tags is likey going to pay the cost of the cancelled power plants.
Thoroughly unimpressed
 
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