Recommend me a good, budget, antique status rifle for my first long gun?

[mooncoon]

I would not recommend a Snider because they usually have shallow rifling and many people find it hard to get accuracy out of them. I am not saying they are inaccurate but rather than they are hard to load correctly. I also would not recommend a trapdoor because although the later ones had excellent sights, many also had shallow rifling and again while better than a snider, can be a challenge, particularly for a beginner, to load accurately for. Also I would not recommend the new "leverution" shells because I suspect they may have higher pressures.
I think what I would recommend would be an original rolling block although you might have to shorten the barrel a bit to get past muzzle wear from cleaning with a steel rod during its active days. The catch is that rebarreling is expensive unless you can do it yourself and shells and dies and moulds for most original calibers can be hard to find and expensive to buy. I would think that regardless of what you choose, you would be approaching $1000 by the time you have it shooting, for most any choice. While I do own and shoot a few antique single shots, I can do so primarily because I am able to do my own work. While others can do that work better than I, it does permit me to shoot my guns for 1/2 the price of having the work done for me.

cheers mooncoon

 

[krprice84]

Thanks so much for this advice!! I definitely plan on hand loading, that's a given n I more was interested in 45-70 because the brass is much easier to find. Maybe I'll look into reloading for the 43 though. The 38-55 I saw was a lever gun so no go.

Is there anywhere anyone can recommend me to look other than the ee (by PM of course) that might be a good place to track down a starter antique rifle (flintlock or something I could hand load for without traveling to the moon for components!). The snider sounds decent if you can use 24 gauge brass, I'll look into that....I figure that must be full brass shells, which I haven't seen many of, but I'll read up on it and post here if I have some questions

You can still get into a .43 Mauser reasonably, and they will do anything a .45-70 will do, being actually a .44-77-386: .446 slug, 77 grains of Black powder (or 29 of SR-4759), 386-grain slug.

I got my first Kar. '71 back when I was in high-school and ammo was at the hardware store, $3.65 a box, paid $3 for it. Got another one a couple years ago, shelled out $100. Both have been chopped, both have good bores. And then there is the '71 Jager rifle that got rescued from a trip to the dump: I have very nearly $5 invested in that one, although it needs wood. Brass IS a problem for the .43 Mauser, but at least one fellow on this board is making his own out of .45-90 empties.

You SHOULD be able to run into a Kar. '71, even on the EE, around $200.... and they are a FINE little hunting rifle. Shoot one at Mister Moose and he craps out from a heart attack before the bullet gets to him!

The idea of buying an 1867 Rolling Block and then paying somebody another $500 to destroy it is repugnant in the extreme. Why not simply buy one in the original 12.11x44R and SHOOT IT? You can reload it with .50-70 dies, it takes a .50-70 slug and load and, if you are too broke to buy brass, you can open out 8mm Lebel casings ($70 a hundred) and they will work just peachy-keen fine. NO reason to butcher a fine piece of history.

There is lots of choice out there, IN your budget range, if you know what to look for and you are willing to do a little bit of work. But when you are dealing with something already 140 or 150 years old, you can't expect just to zippp down to the corner Tactical Supply Depot and pick up a box of ammo: all they stock is .223 and .308 and maybe 7.62x39: ALL developed a century after your target date.

BTW, you might be able to BUY .45-70 but I would NOT use it in an antique barrel. Jackets are much too hard for an old soft-iron or mild-steel bore, flatten the rifling down in about 5 boxes.

If you do it right and have any respect for the rifle, you will be in a handloading situation right from the first shot.

Get used to that idea, do it right...... and there are a world of fine old rifles out there, just waiting for someone to love them and feed them.

 

[dakotamar]

what kind of flinter is that?

Snider rifles are fairly easy to build ammo for, I think its a easy rifle to load for if your just starting out with blackpowder cartridge rifles.

Of course I would always ALWAYS prefer a good flintlock any day of the week just because I really like them more then my percussion arms, black powder cartridge arms and far more modern milsurp arms.

A flintlock is a beautiful thing.

 

[mooncoon]

original snider cases are usually berdan primed which makes them very difficult to reload. The model 71 mauser is a bolt action single shot, if you can find one. While modern brass is expensive, you can balloon out 45-70 cases to result in a slightly short but shootable shell for a lot less money. The 71/84 mauser uses a rebated case and has an ejector rod which fits into the rebate while the 71 has only an extractor and can use flat based cases. The 71/84 is also a repeater which eliminates it from your criteria

cheers mooncoon

 

[Musketfire]

what kind of flinter is that?

This one is a miroku 1766 Charleville. I really love it, She was originally manufactured in the 70's and I lucked on to her as a 30 year old unassembeled, unfired parts KIT in a bag.
Ive had her for 6 years now and she just gets better....Or maybe im getting better.

 

[ciphery]

Isn't caliber something you need to consider guys? I hear all these suggestions but if you can buy ammo for it than its not an antique. The cartridge has to be no longer available commercially does it not?
Anything 45-70gvt is therefore out, as is 38-55

45-70 maynard strait case on the other hand and 40-60 marlin are ok.

Budget gun and antique don't usually go together.

Sad but 90% of tradeEX's rolling blocks are 1900 era actions and don't qualify, the few that are old enough to be classified antiques are in rough condition, rim fire and double the price. (Sold on their antique status as a merit)

 

[tokguy]

Double post

 

[tokguy]

IIRC the cartridge only has to be larger than 8mm ( on the long gun side, pistols are waaay different).
There is a nice Martini on the EE that you could run 45 LC through ( with a chamber insert of course). That would be a viable option...600 $ is a not bad price for the rifle

 

[mooncoon]

IIRC the cartridge only has to be larger than 8mm ( on the long gun side, pistols are waaay different).
There is a nice Martini on the EE that you could run 45 LC through ( with a chamber insert of course). That would be a viable option...600 $ is a not bad price for the rifle

45 colt and 45 auto would not work because the bore diameter is roughly .450 and groove up around .465 or more. The 45 pistol shells are .451. You could have a chamber liner made for it and should 45-70 with soft lead bullets. The soft lead (5% alloy or less) should upset into the bore

cheers mooncoon

 

[Goldenlakepete]

Any suggestions on a good beginners flintlock on a budget? Or are most pretty decent? Any I should stay away from? And any good advice?

Thanks!

Look for a good used Thompson/Center Hawken or Renegade or a Lyman Trade Rifle or Great Plains. A lot of my friends shoot them and have had good experiences. Several friends have Traditions flintlocks and they seem to be a "sometimes" thing. Some spark and shoot well while others have problems. But then you can get a brand new Traditions "Kentucky" flintlock for $420 at Cabelas.

 

[jethunter]

... if you can buy ammo for it than its not an antique...

Not true.

There's a sticky at the top of the antique forum that has the regulations, you should read it.

 

[Tinman204]

To the OP,

Good shootable antique rifles and shotguns are around and can be bought for little to no money.

The biggest problem is knowing what us safe to shoot and what isn't. The second problem is not listening to your buddies when they tell you that you're crazy shooting guns that old!!

In my rack right now there's a 3 band full wood snider (load that with black powder and 24 gauge plastic hulls, 70 grains FFG and a 58 cal round ball patched), a Zulu shotgun conversion, 2 1874 GRAS shotguns (use once fired 12 gauge hulls cut back to 2.5" loaded with a .690 round ball and 60-80 grains of black powder) and a .43 Mauser. I've probably reached the $1000 dollar mark on all of them together with casting supplies, brass/hulls and powder.

I haven't fired the .43 yet but I will as soon as the I can get a good casting day in!!

I'd say based on my experience if money was tight id look for a Zulu/Gras shotgun conversion and load it with a single round ball and hunt away.

They look like this:

M1874 Gras

Zulu

50-60 yard accuracy is acceptable and they are both a blast to shoot and have devastating power at closer ranges.

 

[yonderin]

Cabela's shows 6 flintlock rifles online within your budget. Easiest way to find them is to type in flintlock for the search function.

Didn't find any online at Wholesale, however a couple of months ago the store in Lethbridge had a couple Great Plains Rifles, can't recall for sure that they were flints. Calgary store might have some. Elwood Epps shows quite a selection as well.

A true antique will stretch your budget for sure. Today I found an 1873 Trapdoor Carbine in less than pristine condition for US$ 1650. Anything in the store that was in any kind of decent shape was over 2 Grand US.

Not much personal experience with my flint but I've been strongly advised to use only genuine black in it. (Now I've probably gone and started a discussion on the virtues of black vs substitutes in flintlocks.)

 

[trevj]

Isn't caliber something you need to consider guys? Yes, must be over 8.3mm. I hear all these suggestions but if you can buy ammo for it than its not an antique. Horse poo from the ignorant/uninformed.The cartridge has to be no longer available commercially does it not? No such requirement in the Law.
Anything 45-70gvt is therefore out, as is 38-55 More horse poo.

45-70 maynard strait case on the other hand and 40-60 marlin are ok. Because they are over 8.3mm, and only if the gun was built before 1898.

Budget gun and antique don't usually go together. Bingo!, This, in spades!

Sad but 90% of tradeEX's rolling blocks are 1900 era actions and don't qualify, the few that are old enough to be classified antiques are in rough condition, rim fire and double the price. (Sold on their antique status as a merit)

If you read the descriptions, almost all those rolling blocks are pre-1898 dated. Remington kindly put the manufacturing date on the side of the action, and Carl Gustav did the same, as they were working closely with Remington on them.
Many are chambered in 8mmx58RD, though, which means they will not be a "Prescribed Antique" until they are re-barreled to a caliber larger than 8.3mm. Others are in Shotgun gauges that are on the list as 'never gonna be antique because we said so'.

Availability is NOT in the Law. It was in some of the early distributions of the information ABOUT the upcoming Law back in the day, and many have clung to it, and unfortunately, shared this out of date information, since.

Imagine, if you will, the chaos it would cause, if there were hundreds of guys that had their Antique status revoked because a manufacturer did a run of some particular caliber. Same, if all the makers quit making, say, 45-70 ammo, changing the status of hundreds more. Then started up again. Untenable, and even the stupid among the writers of this cluster f**k of a law, were able to see that it would take a staff to keep tabs on it, and another one to manage the ever changing list of 'available' ammo's.

Read the actual law. There is a link in the stickies at the top of the sub-forum list page.

Cheers
Trev

 

[krprice84]

Well it looks like this has proven too hard of a task to accomplish, as most have said.

I might end up with a flintlock just for fun, but not for it's antique status - my pal is close to being finished the process and i expect that, barring any problems (which there should not be, according to the CFC guy) i should see it within the month.

Having said that, flintlocks really interest me and i might try to find one for cheap just to try out and play with. If i don't like it, i can always sell it. If i do like it then i can always get a better one

as it stands i think, for now, my two antique revolvers (both in .455 webley) will suffice... might end up selling the RIC pattern belgian made one to fund a modern rifle purchase when the time comes, as my webley Mk1 is my baby now. She's real purdy

 

[H4831]

problem with just about any antique especially rifles in .45-70 you pretty much have to reload with black powder or light smokeless loads. the big reason to stay anyway from factory .45-70 loads is most are made for modern lever guns that can take a lot more pressure compared to a antique trapdoor(witch is weaker then a modern made trapdoor). also you must know that antique are not cheap a lot of them need a custom mold and or custom reloading dies like the martini henry or snider if you get either one stay away from lee dies they over work brass as they are made for the smallest chambers in their calibers. also the snider will like a .585"-.600" round ball in pure lead or a .585"-.595" conical(length/weight will depend on twist rate). your best bet buy a crossbow or shoot/hunt with arms reach of someone with a PAL

The 45-70 Springfield Trapdoor's are antique and if in good condition, they will handle the smokeless powder, modern manufactured ammunition.
I recently shot an old Winchester factory load of 405 grain jacketed, probably made in the 1930s, in my trapdoor, over a chronograph. It registered just over 1400 fps, just as it was designed for and likely faster than the newly manufactured 45-70 ammunition, which is designed for weak actions.

 

[smellie]

You can duplicate just about ANY original blackpowder cartridge load with SR-4759 at 38% of Black for the charge.

Result is smokeless, clean, running at the same VELOCITIES and PRESSURES as original Black Powder ammo.

It is only when guys start "souping up" loads that you run into TROUBLE.

That means 26.6 grains of SR-4759 for the .45-70 OR the .50-70, 29 grains for the .43 Mauser, 15-1/2 grains for the .32-40. Not hard at all. Just be careful.

I note that we have recommended for 4 pages now...... and the OP has decided to use NONE of them!

Still some good stuff here.....

 

[krprice84]

Just to be clear it isn't at all that I've decided to use none of them, they are great recommendations. I've just not been able to find something.

I did track down a Springfield trap door from the states that I'm thinking of bringing up. I also am waiting on/considering looking for the 577 or, preferably, a 577/450. I may also look at a flintlock but it wouldn't be my first choice right now. I'd much prefer a cartridge gun.

I'm also trying to look into using hulls for the snider, as I didn't realize that could be done (plastic ones, I've heard about the brass ones which are either very expensive and/or impossible to find.

The 577/450 would be a top choice if I can find one for cheap enough, add I'll just shoot 45LC in it. The trapdoor would be even better as I wouldn't need you use a chamber adapter. But again, I'm looking at over a grand for a shootable trapdoor or close to that for any of the 577/450 that I've seen up until now.

If anyone knows of or can point me at somewhere that I could find one of those in ugly outward shape but decent functionally and bore wise, that's all I care about. I'm happy to refinish/reblue whatever - this isn't a collectable for me it's something to shoot.

But on that note, my pal has been processed through the initial phase and I'm told they are just waiting for my photo to get scanned in and it will be off to the Alberta cfo. So this may end up being something that can wait until I can afford a nicer old black powder gun and can even afford the hassle of playing with a round that is maybe a little less simple to deal with (like a 43 fire example). The idea originally was a long gun that I can use until my license arrives and practice with, then hopefully tame it on a hunt. Seeing as that hasn't come to pass, and I've managed to get some time behind a 308 savage asking a few other guns, I'm hoping my pal arrives soon and I can just buy a modern gun for this go around.

 

[krprice84]

You can duplicate just about ANY original blackpowder cartridge load with SR-4759 at 38% of Black for the charge.

Result is smokeless, clean, running at the same VELOCITIES and PRESSURES as original Black Powder ammo.

It is only when guys start "souping up" loads that you run into TROUBLE.

That means 26.6 grains of SR-4759 for the .45-70 OR the .50-70, 29 grains for the .43 Mauser, 15-1/2 grains for the .32-40. Not hard at all. Just be careful.

I note that we have recommended for 4 pages now...... and the OP has decided to use NONE of them!

Still some good stuff here.....

I hope you don't think I am being rude or anything, I appreciate the advice, but see my post above.

Also can that powder be used in a handgun cartridge such as the 455 Webley? I'm trying ti build up a few different loads for it and would love to hear some first hand experience from anyone who's done it

 

[smellie]

SR - Sporting RIFLE.

It is emphatically NOT a pistol cartridge powder.

What does a Trapdoor have that a Mauser does NOT have? Apart from being 8 or 10 or 20 times the price, that is? Trapdoor is generally a .45-70-405.

Mauser is a .446-77-386. It will DO anything the Trapdoor will do. They are on the EE at 100 and up. A friend got one at a gun show last weekend, $75. Genuine Karabiner 1871, made at Spandau. Needs a LITTLE work but that is part of the fun.

You DID say "BUDGET".

Do have fun.