Please school me on 35 Whelan!
- Thread starter Potshot21
- Start date
bigborefan
Regular
- Location
- Kawartha Lakes, ON
Physics will deny that "odd quirk". 2500 fps+ from a 22" .338-06?
I've gotten 2600 + fps from a Rem 22" and 250s from my Whelen, and so has the late Finn Aagaard, the renowned African PH and gun writer.
Bob
www.bigbpres.ca
Johnn Peterson
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Chemainus B.C.
Any photos?
Johnn Peterson
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Chemainus B.C.
Possibly they take into account the trajectory more than just short range energy.
Hornady's words about the 338-06, "The resulting ballistics matched the old 333 OKH wildcat from the mid 40's and exceed those of the 35 Whelen."
The 225 grain Hornady boat tail out of a 22 inch barrel easily reaches 2700 f/s. (3640 Foot pounds) Much flatter than the 35 with 250 grains at 2500f/s (3470 foot pounds) and more energy retained at all ranges by the 338 bullet.
Either cartridge is an excellent choice for a non magnum and a fairly short barrel. My Oehler 35P measured no significant velocity loss from 24 inches to 22 inches. I am tempted to cut another 2 inches off.
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Johnn Peterson
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Chemainus B.C.
What is your preference for powder?
Johnn......A good friend of mine did extensive trials with the Whelen a few years back and found IMR 4320 to give the best velocity and excellent accuracy. When I got mine I went right to IMR 4320 and got what the previous pics in this thread displays, excellent accuracy AND outstanding velocities.
Homesteader
CGN Regular
- Location
- In a Wallow West of Edmonton.
Reloader 15 made my old 7600 sing a pretty song. MOA, very low velocity deviation, and on a +20 C day a little over 2600fps. Never saw any pressure signs, with the brass, case life was never a problem, but I maybe only got 5 reloads on the brass before I sold it. Anyway I stuck with the RL15, and 250g HotCors, killed elk dead!
Johnn Peterson
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Chemainus B.C.
Thanks guys. I have a line on a very nice custom Whelen and the wheels are turning. Why, with my 358NMs I don't know but I might 'need' it. IMR 4320 is one of the powders I'm using in the Normas, along with IMR 4064 and IMR 4350.
Something I may have missed in the previous posts but is still very relevant when it comes to the 35 Whelan is twist rate.
I have a custom built Shilen barrel on my 35 Whelan which is built on a matching 1936 dated 98 Mauser action I picked up as an action only.
I had the opportunity to play with different twist rate barrels on this rifle. At the time, I didn't have access to a Chrony. What I did was zero each rifle at 100 yards then shoot 5 rounds of the same weight bullets from one maker/lot at 200 and 300 yards, then measure the drop at each range with each barrel.
All of the barrels were 26in long. To long IMHO but good enough for the test.
I used the info out of the Hornady Third edition manual. I had all of the powders they had listed and a couple that were a bit faster and IMHO more suitable for the bore diameter, such as H4198 and Reloader 7.
The bullet I used for a test bed was the 250grain round nose.
The first barrel had a 1-12 twist rate but would stabilize even the heaviest 35 bullets commonly available at the time. Velocities were the lowest of the three barrels. I assume I was getting 2500fps or close to it because I was getting 6+ inches of drop at 200yds and 23in at 300.
The second barrel had a 1-15 twist rate and at 200 yards the groups were higher by about 100fps. 200yds- -5in and 300yds- -20in.
The third barrel had a very slow 1-18 twist rate and was made by Shilen.
This barrel was a real surprise, velocities were markedly faster than the 12 or 15 twist rate. At 200 yards, there was only 4.2in of drop and at 300 there was only 17.2 in of drop. According to the tables at the back of the book, that is close to 2800fps.
Not only that, the barrel shot much better than I had hoped for. 1-1 1/2 moa out to 400yds. I was thrilled with this performance. So much so that after 20+ years I still have the rifle and use it on occasion. It is a toss up between it and my 338-06. Usually as I age and weight becomes more of an issue, the 338-06 gets the nod.
The powder of choice for me, was RL7 with CCI250 Magnum primers.
I will not disclose my loads because they are on the warm side but don't show any pressure signs in my rifle.
I will say that I started with IMR3031 starting loads because there weren't any tested tables utilizing the powders I liked for the job.
H4198 was OK but just a tad to fast.
I tried some custom 300 grain round nose as well but the 1-18 twist won't stabilize the bullets.
From shooting Hunter Bench Rest, I had picked up that the twist rates we normally use have more to do with tradition than what we really need for our purposes.
The 1-18 twist is a very unusual twist rate and must have been a special order. All three 35 cal barrels came out of a shop in Rutland where the owner passed on and his Son in Law was selling off everything he couldn't use in his store at bargain basement prices. I made up two other rifles using the other barrels.
My rifle is on the edge of stabilizing the 250grain round nose Hornady bullets. It also stabilizes the Speer 250grain Spire Point and Grand Slams.
This is a highly touted but highly underrated cartridge. With good hand loads, it can really perform.
One thing though, I am recoil shy because of a frozen shoulder and when the velocities get that high, you definitely notice the recoil.
Johnn Peterson
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Chemainus B.C.
Thanks bearhunter. A wealth of info there and I appreciate it. It'll take me a while to work my way through it. My model 68DL Schultz & Larsen and model 1651 Husqvarna, both in 358NM are a 1-12".
And , thanks guntech for the the powder info. With accuracy results like that, it's hard to argue with 'success'.
I recently acquired some 310gr. Woodleigh bullets and while reload info is pretty slim for that weight of bullet, a 'popular' choice seems to be Norma N204. As luck would have it, I was recently given a 1lb tin of it.
Again, thanks guys. Much appreciated.
And , thanks guntech for the the powder info. With accuracy results like that, it's hard to argue with 'success'.
I recently acquired some 310gr. Woodleigh bullets and while reload info is pretty slim for that weight of bullet, a 'popular' choice seems to be Norma N204. As luck would have it, I was recently given a 1lb tin of it.
Again,
thanks guys. Much appreciated.Most of the 358 NMs I've seen have 1-12 twist rates. A friend of mine has one with a 1-16 twist.
There is a reason we choose to go to "magnum cartridges." Most people are under the impression that magnum means way better performance and velocities. That isn't always true. IMHO I am more impressed by how much a smaller cartridge will do with so much less and just about equal the magnum cases with light and mid range bullet weights.
One of the main reasons so called magnum cartridges came about was so that heavy bullets could be loaded and still get similar results without extreme pressures in the hot African sunlight. The 300H&H, when factory loaded for Africa with 220grain bullets wasn't any hotter than the 30-06. The larger case just allowed more space for slower burning powders and lower pressures with the powders available at its inception.
By the way, the 30-06 loaded close to max velocities and pressures with 200-220 grain is no slouch either. Especially with the powders available today. To bad long for caliber bullets don't seem to have caught on in diameters over .284
Magnum cartridges were designed to shoot BIG, LONG and HEAVY bullets at reasonable velocities to reach out a bit further.
In many instances they don't really beat their standard cartridge cased brothers unless they are loaded with the heavier bullets.
The 35 Whelan and 338-06 are excellent cartridges. It is hard to choose between them. I will admit though that if I had to, it would be the 338-06 because there seems to be a greater amount of 338 diameter bullets readily available.
Surprisingly though it is easier to get the higher velocities out of the 35 Whelan than it is out of the 338-06. Again, I suspect fast twist rates are the culprit in that. My two 338-06 rifles have 1-14 twists. They barely stabilize 275 gr Speer bullets but will readily stabilize 250 grain and lighter bullets. They both really like Hornady IBs and SST ILs. Sub 3/4 moa groups are common at all ranges I shoot at.
The 35 Whelan and 338-06 really come into their stride when in a moose or elk blind on a meadow or on the power lines. Accurate and hard hitting out to 400+ yards. Likely more but that's about as far as I'm comfortable with.
There is a reason we choose to go to "magnum cartridges." Most people are under the impression that magnum means way better performance and velocities. That isn't always true. IMHO I am more impressed by how much a smaller cartridge will do with so much less and just about equal the magnum cases with light and mid range bullet weights.
One of the main reasons so called magnum cartridges came about was so that heavy bullets could be loaded and still get similar results without extreme pressures in the hot African sunlight. The 300H&H, when factory loaded for Africa with 220grain bullets wasn't any hotter than the 30-06. The larger case just allowed more space for slower burning powders and lower pressures with the powders available at its inception.
By the way, the 30-06 loaded close to max velocities and pressures with 200-220 grain is no slouch either. Especially with the powders available today. To bad long for caliber bullets don't seem to have caught on in diameters over .284
Magnum cartridges were designed to shoot BIG, LONG and HEAVY bullets at reasonable velocities to reach out a bit further.
In many instances they don't really beat their standard cartridge cased brothers unless they are loaded with the heavier bullets.
The 35 Whelan and 338-06 are excellent cartridges. It is hard to choose between them. I will admit though that if I had to, it would be the 338-06 because there seems to be a greater amount of 338 diameter bullets readily available.
Surprisingly though it is easier to get the higher velocities out of the 35 Whelan than it is out of the 338-06. Again, I suspect fast twist rates are the culprit in that. My two 338-06 rifles have 1-14 twists. They barely stabilize 275 gr Speer bullets but will readily stabilize 250 grain and lighter bullets. They both really like Hornady IBs and SST ILs. Sub 3/4 moa groups are common at all ranges I shoot at.
The 35 Whelan and 338-06 really come into their stride when in a moose or elk blind on a meadow or on the power lines. Accurate and hard hitting out to 400+ yards. Likely more but that's about as far as I'm comfortable with.
