Precision Back Up Flip Up Gun Sites

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One Lung Wonder

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G'day boys!

Hey - have any of you fellas had any luck with the flip up battle sights? Reason I ask is - because I am not! Oh sure, I am sure I can go MOT (Minute Of Talibanger) with them out to 100; but I am asking about precision. If I understand these gizmos correctly the Troy sights are supposed to be pretty good - but I suck with them too!!!

Are there any finer 'national match' type flip ups out there? Your two bits are sincerely appreciated as always!
 
Question

1)If you want precision iron sights why not just go with fixed?

2)Do you have other aperture sighted rifles that you shoot well with?

I ask (at the risk of offending you...but that is not my intent) because not everybody has experience with shooting irons and knows how to shoot them well. Before shooters go looking for better sights/barrels/optics/whatever it is usually good to know if the problem is with the equipment or the operator. If a shooter does not have experience/skill with iron sights, buying new irons will probably not help. Research on proper use, sight picture and practice will.

Now, if you are comfortable with your skill/ability with irons then that answers question two and I am left with question 1. I think for precision sighting, you are pretty much always going to have better results with fixed irons rather than flip ups. They are solid and fixed in place for one, so much less chance of them moving around and generally have better (accurate/repeatable) adjustments.

Also flip ups are back up sights....primarily to be used when your primary sighting system fails for some reason. Basically they are a donut sized spare tire for your rifle. Gets you home but not meant to be run at highway speed.
 
I've got the Emtan ones sold by Wolverine and have had no problems hitting the 200m gong at the range standing and off the bench with a 14.5" barrel. They run 175$ for the set and were easy to sight in. Best I've found for the money.
 
I second fixed irons and operator skill. My LMT irons are damn nice but the best upgrade was a NM front post. I can't remember if its .060" or .050" but the standard A2 square front post is .070". I like the A2 in my CQB rifles because its quicker to pick up and get on target with and the NM is much finer for when I pretend to shoot irons well at distance. Practice is your best tool to get better but as far as the gear goes don't follow tactical hype when looking for quality AR irons for precision work. Most flip BUIS have no elevation adjustment in the rear sight and most use a set and forget windage adjustment that doesn't lend itself well to precision shooting. Now the reason I say don't follow the hype is because even though the top brands are good quality, they are aimed at being robust and reliable more than solid and adjustable. Even Troy BUIS have substantial play in them. They need to be dirt, mud and dust proof so as not to jam up when needed. For service rifle use they are a good choice. For match use they are not ideal.
 
I myself have some ARMS #40-L-SP rear sight and #41-B-L folding front sight gas block.

http://www.wolverinesupplies.com/details/8564/ARMS-41-B-L-Silhouette.aspx

http://www.wolverinesupplies.com/details/8563/ARMS-40L-SP.aspx


Big money for BUIS, yeah, but I got a chance to bring out my AR and they had me ringing the 100m gong out at CHAS second shot out of a brand new frankengun. My RDS was way off, like ten feet high, so I cowitnessed it with the BUIS and it worked just fine. ;) This is from a guy who was shooting a 16" group at a 40m range last year...

What is your idea of precision? Are you looking for MOA, sub-MOA?

If you are in Edmonton, I'm willing to let you get a look at them if we can arrange a range trip.
 
BUIS are just that, backup.
If I leave them on a rifle I sight them in then they stay folded forever. I buy quality glass so I don't worry about failure. Honestly, when was the last time you had your optics fail? If you buy quality glass it isn't going to fail under civilian use unless you're being dumb and abusing it, if your battery goes dead, pull another out of your range bag and replace it. We aren't in combat here so to me irons are just added bulk a rifle doesn't need. Two of my rifles still have them and they are Magpul, only because they are light, I don't need the rail space and I can't be bothered to take them off.
Spend your money on quality glass and do your precision shooting with that. By quality I mean spend some dollars, it's worth it. Nightforce, Trijicon, Elcan, Aimpoint, etc... Once you use a quality optic you will be disgusted when you look through the cheap stuff.
If you must shoot through irons because you just like to do it then as has been mentioned buy the fixed ones. There are some really nice ones out there but they are expensive. Again, you get what you pay for, if you shop on eBay expect them to fall apart.
 
Mostly because I'm curious, but is there any real reason for BUIS? Even in a combat/professional/"operator" sort of environment do you see BUIS? It just seems that a good, professional grade optic like a Eotech or equivalent pretty much never fails. If you're buying cheap optics then I can see it but in that case would you not probably be buying cheap back-ups too which would probably negate the point.
I'm not trying to stir stuff here, honestly curious. It just seems like it would be adding weight and extra bits for no real purpose.

Full disclaimer: I actually really like the look of back up irons on a black rifle, just wasn't sure if they served an actual purpose or if they were one of those answers to a question nobody asked.
 
I am proficient with irons...let me qualify that: I am proficient with GOOD iron sights. There are some I just don't get along with - like the factory irons on a 10/22 or 94 Winchester...I dunno what it is but I can't shoot them for love or money. With my Springfield M1A National Match I can put about 75% of my shots on a 6" bull off my hind feet on a good day. I am no screaming hell as a marksman but I am no slouch either.

Yesterday I was in at Bartons up in Grande Prairie harassing the fine young fella behind the gun counter and I ended up buying an XCR-L on impulse. When I get back home I will throw either an old Zeiss or Swarovski 3x9 that I will liberate from one of the other safe queens. For now though - I am stuck with the back up sights till next week. I had to crank the rear sight almost all the way over to zero it at 50m with the large aperture. If I flip to the fine aperture I am right off the paper...I think I am going high but I ran out of ammo before I could confirm that.

So: what is it with battle sights? I had the dual aperture thing with an old AR and it pi$$ed me off so bad I plunked a scope on it and said to hell with them! Now I have to figure them out again! At what range do you flip up to the fine aperature? 200? And that fuggin front sight...!!! That thing is a PITA too!!! Is there a formal procedure for using these?

Some of you have questioned the need for back ups and I tend to agree. The EOtechs and holo sights these days are rock solid and dependable; and any high quality scope worth its salt is too. BUT: consider my situation today: I bought the gun while on a business trip; I won't have a scope for another week...but I DO have these damnable flippy sights! I can either use them or go soak my head till next week! Yes, sometimes you will need back up sights - this is the first time I ever needed them in 30 years... so your mileage may vary. Regardless - this gun came with them and rather than chimping out and throwing them away in a fit of rage like I did last time - I am going to force myself to figure them out AND use them!
 
From what I've seen, a lot of the smaller aperatures are meant for 300m, with the larger ones for 100m. It varies though, I specifically got same plane ones, so that the centers are in the same location to avoid that situation.
 
We might have bumped into each other yesterday lol. The rear aperture is zero'd @ 200 for the large aperture and 300 for the small. The trajectory from 0-200 with most .223 rises about 1-1.5" @ 100 for a 200 yd zero. Sounds like something is buggered with those sights. Are they installed correctly?
 
mikethebike said:
i really wish someone could show me how to line up aperture sights, cause frankly i suck with them
Click to expand...

As long as the gun and sights fits you nicely you should be able to simply rest your cheek and look through the aperture at the front sight.
Ignore the rear and just place the bead or top of the post on your target and pull the trigger.

I prefer brass beads and fire sights over a basic post but the same con pet applies... Don't over think it.

I usually shoot with both eyes open but sometimes close one eye if my eyes are watery.
 
Well I feel The Chimp Of Rage coming on. Either these sights are effed or something is wrong. The rear Troy sight is cranked right over to the left just to hit paper. Lateral dispersion is about 4~7" (I'll take that, considering they're battle sights, and I am shooting of my hind feet... and they're not target sights) - but the horizontal spread is about 3 feet. I will shoot a three shot group and hit low - and then another and hit high - way high!

Goddammit!!! I put the gun away; I am just wasting ammo at this point.

I looked at the sights - they're tight on the rail. There is a little bit of slop in the machining but nothing I would call excessive. The front sight is firmly in its detent and the post within looks solid. I pulled out the M1A National Match and started punching black like clockwork. Maybe it's me...but I don't think so. Can any of you think of anything? I have the horrible feeling I am missing something obvious here....why isn't this thing shooting?!?!?
 
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