Vz58 Pistol RCMP Report

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TV-PressPass

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Well folks. When we started this project we had no idea it would be such a pain in the ass.

Recreated below is my latest blog post.

In October 2013, with the help of Zahal.org, I imported a CSA Vz58 pistol and sought to register it with the RCMP.

After emails, phone-calls, and picture taking, the RCMP seemed totally befuddled as to what we had, and asked if they could take a look at it.
We sent it off, and 9 months later they claim to have figured it out.
You can find a copy of the RCMP’s report, warts and all, right here:

Vz58 Handgun Inspection Report.pdf

I am disappointed to find that against all evidence, the RCMP has sought to shut out the Vz58 pistol.

Apparently my Vz58 pistol is technically a handgun, but it is not a pure handgun. Instead it is a “handgun adaptation of a rifle” which means that my separately sourced magazine from Czech Republic is actually a rifle magazine, posing as a handgun magazine. There is no classification in Canadian law for a “handgun adaptation of a rifle.”

But: this is their argument behind, a 5 round capacity limitation. Apparently my Vz58 Pistol magazine is a prohibited device.

Honestly I find this pretty disheartening. I’ve had $1500 of my own money tied up in this gun for 9 months, and to have this ridiculous report come back is a slap in the face.

The interpretation of the law seems to vary wildly from firearm to firearm. An AR-15 pistol, like the Rock River Arms LAR or ATRS pistol, have a 10 round capacity, but the Vz family does not? This seems like more muddying of the “lineage” argument, which seems to ignore what things are in favour of what they “might have been.”

This seems like an unfortunate continuation of the RCMP’s targeting Cz858, Vz58, and Sa58 pattern rifles.

I am currently exploring options with National Firearms organizations and media, but after 9 months I’m pretty darn tired of being strung along.

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Firstly, TVPP needs some serious kudos for taking up this endeavor. He bought the pistol, imported it, and then shipped it to the lab for evaluation, complete with pistol mag. He is losing the magazine, getting the pistol back, and it is currently going to be limited to 5 rounds like any other current vz58 styled offering. Lots of effort spent on no reward so far. He shouldn’t have to buy a round at the bar for himself for some time, just saying.

As for the ruling, I honestly didn’t see it turning out this way. And while I’m not thrilled by the result of their interpretation, I can see where they base their argument under the current rules.

Let me explain…

The firearm:
Czech Small Arms (CSA) currently produces rifles. They make no pistols what so ever. The vz58 and vz61 series coming out of Czech currently start their life as rifle receivers, are assembled and shipped to where ever they may go. Canada, the US, and other European nations.

Czech-Point in the US, is the US distributor for said firearms. At some point, after either arrival in the US, or before landing on US shores pre-inspection, the original rifles are modified to have their stocks removed, and a sling plate added to the rear of the receiver. This makes them pistols, both in the US, and when imported into Canada. However, even Czechpoint advertises that US buyers can fasten a stock to the “pistol”, making it an SBR in the US, as long as they apply for the appropriate tax stamp.

The RCMP acknowledges this in their ruling, and the information can be found online easily enough.

In Canada, we could do the same. Buy a vz58 rifle, remove the stock and have the RCMP lab, or a verifier classify it as a pistol. Given the FRT now exists for a CSA pistol, verification should be easy.

The magazine:
Given the above, all vz58 receivers start out in life as vz58 rifle receivers. There are no receivers that are built, and intended from the ground up to be pistol receivers. One might say “what about the AR15 pistol and XCR pistol receivers???” Well, these are forged, and roll marked at the time of production as “pistols”. It is roll marked right into the side. They were never rifles, and were never modified from rifles into pistols. Pistols from birth.

The RCMP have stated that the current vz58 pistol magazine on the market is prohibited. They argue that all vz58 pistols currently on the market (one in Canada, more in the US for import) are modified rifles. As the original manufacture has only ever made rifle receivers, and all pistol versions are converted rifles, then all magazines currently on the market are rifle magazine designed and have been adapted to be pistol magazines, by stamping “pistol magazine” on the side. And we know how that plays out. It is their contention that this is no different than taking a PMAG, and stamping “pistol magazine” on the side of it.

We could buy a CSA rifle, modify it to a pistol and have it registered. We could not turn around and start decalling/stamping existing 10 round rifle mags as pistol mags. I'm not saying this is what Zahal's supplier has done, but that is what the RCMP is saying Zahal's supplier of "pistol mags" has done.

So how does one make a pistol magazine legal given this interpretation???

The only solution I can see (and I’m far from all seeing), is to produce a vz58 pistol receiver from the ground up, roll marked as a “pistol” during production, with a solid rear end that is not capable of receiving a stock in any form. As the firearm would be born as a pistol, it could never be anything else. And as an originally designed pistol, it could then have a pistol magazine designed specifically for it. Currently all vz58 production, even in the US, is focused around rifle receivers. All pistols are first rifles, modified to US standards to be pistols second.
 
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TV did you take the guys at the lab out for lunch in mexico or somewhere else equally as nice? if not thats why.
P.S. thanks for trying.
 
TV-PressPass said:
Fenceline's got a pretty solid bead on the RCMP Tech's brain-waves.

I'm pretty chuffed about the whole thing. Getting real tired of the inconsistent weirdness of these messes.
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And I feel dirty because of it hahahaha. "GET OUT OF MY HEAD!!!"

Sadly I feel they have been very consistent. It is the law and all of it's inconsitancies which create such inconsitencies in rulings from one matter to another. All this would be very simply if they removed magazine restrictions. That is the source of the problem.
 
First off thanks TVPP for trying. But does anyone else think this is just the start of the RCMP fighting back against the newly passed regulations from the government taking away their right to change the classifications whenever they fell like it however long down the road. I fear this may be the beginning of a "since we can't make it prohib in a few years lets just make it prohib now" era. Anything new and cool that may come into the country might just get the prohib stamp on its way in the door now.
 
So by what fenceline is saying, what needs to happen is CZ or VZ need to produce an off the assembly line pistol with no middle man for this to happen properly?
And TVPP, sorry things didn't work out quite as expected. It's an exciting idea.
 
TVPP, it's people like you why we have progress in our favor on firearms laws in this country. Thanks for all your hard work, and together we will succeed through this madness
 
kennymo said:
So by what fenceline is saying, what needs to happen is CZ or VZ need to produce an off the assembly line pistol with no middle man for this to happen properly?
And TVPP, sorry things didn't work out quite as expected. It's an exciting idea.
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Yup. Needs to start as a pistol. Not be a rifle, altered into a pistol. From the labs point of view.
 
I think fence line hit the nail on the head.

It strikes me as rather absurd that we can have 5/30 magazines because a simple pop rivet is keeping us safe... Yet, a ten round pistol magazine is a no no.
 
--PA-- said:
The HiPoint 995 is a different receiver then the pistol yet its was deamed dual purpose and had to be pinned to 5.
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That was a different kettle of fish. Magazine made for both rifles and pistols, so lower standard applies. This vz58 is a rifle transformed into a pistol. As no pistols were made as original, and only rifles were converted to pistols, all magazine designs are rifle mag designs.

This is not a "dual use" arguement, rather a receiver "design" arguement that is keeping the 5 round limit the max.
 
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