Wrong Way
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Wasnt about confidence....the rifle just loved the 140's. 4 into an inch at 100 with them....and it was a pencil barrelled 700 Mountain LSS
lightweight X bullets and moose
- Thread starter vpsalin
- Start date
Wasnt about confidence....the rifle just loved the 140's. 4 into an inch at 100 with them....and it was a pencil barrelled 700 Mountain LSS
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
What should be kept in mind when comparing the relative merits of lead core bullets to mono-metals, is that mono-metal bullets are designed backwards. Looking back to the advent of smokeless powder, when the earliest copper jacketed bullets began to appear, the weight of the bullet was determined by the length of it's lead core. Over time various techniques were employed to prevent core separation, beginning with harder lead alloys which expanded more slowly, then tapered jackets were introduced to control the rate of expansion, followed by various core locking devices, finally to single core bonded bullets like Nosler's Accubond, dual core bonded bullets like the hugely successful Swift A Frames, and the solid shank bonded bullets like those from Rhino. When these bullets were made in different weights within caliber, it was the length of the core that changed to accommodate the desired weight.
A style of bullet that I'm very fond of is the solid shank bonded bullet. Typically these bullets are made with a pure lead core located up front of the solid copper shank, and surrounded by a pleated jacket, which opens in 4 petals not unlike a TSX. Thus when the bullet expands, provided enough target density is encountered, it can open to the full length of the core, resulting in a huge frontal area. The bonding prevents separation, thus a larger frontal area is realized, and the terminal performance is all out of proportion with what has been expected from other bullets within caliber. The expansion cannot extend below the core into the shank, so gyroscopic stability is maintained. Thus we see that core length can have a direct affect on terminal performance beyond just enhanced penetration due to the greater momentum of a heavier bullet.
Enter the mono-metals. These bullets were more of a departure from the traditional lead core bullet than was obvious at first glance. All of the hollow points within caliber are approximately the same depth, so within caliber the expanded frontal area is fixed. This isn't a bad idea, but it is different. The advantage is that the bullet cannot over expand, regardless of the impact velocity or the bullet weight, making the mono-metals an excellent choice for dangerous game at blood on the shoes ranges where impact velocities are very high. The fact that the bullet cannot over-expand is important to stability, because a bullet needs a longitudinal axis to rotate around if stability is to be maintained. A bullet that expands right down to it's base is less stable than one which has a third of it's length remaining behind the expanded nose section, that is the bullet shank. The way to adjust the weight of a mono-metal bullet, is by adjusting the length of the shank rather than the length of the expandable nose. So while the nose depth of all bullets weights within caliber are very similar, the shank length varies significantly between weights. As we see, there are lots of ways to skin a cat.
A style of bullet that I'm very fond of is the solid shank bonded bullet. Typically these bullets are made with a pure lead core located up front of the solid copper shank, and surrounded by a pleated jacket, which opens in 4 petals not unlike a TSX. Thus when the bullet expands, provided enough target density is encountered, it can open to the full length of the core, resulting in a huge frontal area. The bonding prevents separation, thus a larger frontal area is realized, and the terminal performance is all out of proportion with what has been expected from other bullets within caliber. The expansion cannot extend below the core into the shank, so gyroscopic stability is maintained. Thus we see that core length can have a direct affect on terminal performance beyond just enhanced penetration due to the greater momentum of a heavier bullet.
Enter the mono-metals. These bullets were more of a departure from the traditional lead core bullet than was obvious at first glance. All of the hollow points within caliber are approximately the same depth, so within caliber the expanded frontal area is fixed. This isn't a bad idea, but it is different. The advantage is that the bullet cannot over expand, regardless of the impact velocity or the bullet weight, making the mono-metals an excellent choice for dangerous game at blood on the shoes ranges where impact velocities are very high. The fact that the bullet cannot over-expand is important to stability, because a bullet needs a longitudinal axis to rotate around if stability is to be maintained. A bullet that expands right down to it's base is less stable than one which has a third of it's length remaining behind the expanded nose section, that is the bullet shank. The way to adjust the weight of a mono-metal bullet, is by adjusting the length of the shank rather than the length of the expandable nose. So while the nose depth of all bullets weights within caliber are very similar, the shank length varies significantly between weights. As we see, there are lots of ways to skin a cat.
I'd say most people can agree that as long as impact velocities remain above 1800fps you are well within that envelope.
Its best when a TSX exits; that way a guy can just believe whatever he wants. It keeps life simple. Here's some I pulled in August, note how things don't always go as planned.
BigUglyMan
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- New Scotland
Well, they're large, game and skinned. I'd say he was 75% right with his description.
I'm sure that the light mono bullets would work fine. That said, I've been a heavy-for-caliber guy for so long that I find it a hard mindset to break. Closest I ever went to "light for caliber" was shooting 350gr X Bullets in my 416 Rigby when I went to RSA for Plains Game. For everything else it's pretty much what I consider "standard"...117gr in the 25-06/257Wby, 180 in the 30-08/300H&H/300WM, 286 in the 366W, 400gr in the 416Rigby, 420gr in the 45-70, 500gr in the 458WM. Maybe I need to change them up but they all work well so I find it hard to motivate myself to change things up.
Its best when a TSX exits; that way a guy can just believe whatever he wants. It keeps life simple. Here's some I pulled in August, note how things don't always go as planned.
TSX or TTSX? I'd say most of the bullets that shed petals are the ones you find because they are shedding weight. I'd suspect most of the pass throughs are the high weight retention bullets (no shed petals). Physics helps us understand that. It can give you a false perspective on these bullets but some do shed petals, no denying that....some brands/models are worse than others due to design.
Its a pretty safe bet that you will find every expanding bullet shot into a buffalo if you dig long enough.But you wouldn't know that.
I thought this was a thread about moose and why wouldn't I know that?
buckbrushoutdoors
Regular
- Location
- fort saskatchewan AB/Edson AB
I've been shooting light for caliber bullets in my rifles for the last 10 years or so. I've shot moose and caribou with 110gr ttsx out of my 270wsm with great results. 4' penetration on moose with a 3500 fps ttsx is just down right fun. I shot alot of critters with the 100gr tsx out of 257wby and never recovered a bullet. In my experience the monometals really come to life when shot in light for caliber set ups.
Bullets got pulled out of buffalo, therefore stopped by buffalo, therefore displaying how much penetration was obtained by both intact and damaged bullets.
Well there we have it. Actual experience with a bullet in question......
......Pardon my ignorance when classifying game! Sheesh. My experience is limited to Eastern Canada, so in my very limited experience/knowledge, Moose is as I described it. Sorry if I have offended you Safari fellas.
I shot quite a few elk with 257wby using 100 grain x bullets and some were nice size bulls.I have yet to recover a bullet from an elk they all passed through they made small holes going in and out but still tore a massive hole through the lungs.These bullets just plain work
Northman999
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Southern Yukon
I'm a heavy for caliber guy, but there's no way a the bullets described aren't going to anchor moose if stiffy handloaded and shot placement is good.
nowarningshot
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
I have had good experience with X bullets. Not specifically these ones mentioned. From reading, the X's are longer than the corresponding lead core bullet weight/weight...so a 165 30 cal of a X and a lead core...the barnes would be longer. Have also heard that penetration for a X is better, so one can expect equivalent performance for a lighter X...say the 150 30 cal X being equivalent to a 165 lead core 30 cal...all else being the same.
Another thing i have heard is that X's are all about speed for performance. One would think that something like a 120 7mm would be really moving, thus a excellent killer at short range. It also follows that the lighter projectile is going to shed velocity/loose terminal performance faster than a heavier higher BC lead core projectile. The reputation for penetration of the X's somewhat cancel the low SD in those smaller projectiles, at least until velocity is below 2600 ft/sec.
Everything else is a bunch of gibberish compared to downrange performance on game. When one touches it off, does the target animal die? No way to know that than ask questions like this, do some searches, and actually try it. If you have doubts, start with shorter shots, many lesser combinations work well at short range.
Another thing i have heard is that X's are all about speed for performance. One would think that something like a 120 7mm would be really moving, thus a excellent killer at short range. It also follows that the lighter projectile is going to shed velocity/loose terminal performance faster than a heavier higher BC lead core projectile. The reputation for penetration of the X's somewhat cancel the low SD in those smaller projectiles, at least until velocity is below 2600 ft/sec.
Everything else is a bunch of gibberish compared to downrange performance on game. When one touches it off, does the target animal die? No way to know that than ask questions like this, do some searches, and actually try it. If you have doubts, start with shorter shots, many lesser combinations work well at short range.
I tested the 130ttsx through cow femurs and muscle at point blank range in a 300 wsm. Performed very well. I might just cook a load for a 300 mag with that bullet and I think it would be a great zapper of things. Like a 257 wby with the 100gr barnes but a .30 cal version. The 257 wby has certainly worked for me I the past with 100gr barnes.
Truthfully the original X bullet was for all intensive purposes a piece of junk and its reputation has plagued modern mono metals despite the fact that they are an entirely new breed of bullet.
Sectional density is an outdated formula that really has little if any value when comparing bullets of different construction. As for lighter mono metals shedding velocity faster than heavier lead core bullets...yes and no. Often, the faster bullet remains faster than a higher BC bullet for a considerable distance downrange, much further than most practical hunting ranges in many cases and as copper/guilding metal is lighter than lead, mono metal are longer than similar weight lead core bullets, increasing their BC. Mono metals only need impact velocities in the 1800-2000fps range so they are hardly a short range option only. In a 30-06 for example, they work well to 500ish yards. Other high-quality lead core bullets also require similar impact velocities so it's not something unique to mono metals.
Sectional density is an outdated formula that really has little if any value when comparing bullets of different construction. As for lighter mono metals shedding velocity faster than heavier lead core bullets...yes and no. Often, the faster bullet remains faster than a higher BC bullet for a considerable distance downrange, much further than most practical hunting ranges in many cases and as copper/guilding metal is lighter than lead, mono metal are longer than similar weight lead core bullets, increasing their BC. Mono metals only need impact velocities in the 1800-2000fps range so they are hardly a short range option only. In a 30-06 for example, they work well to 500ish yards. Other high-quality lead core bullets also require similar impact velocities so it's not something unique to mono metals.
