what would consider accurate in a NR semi?

hoochie

hoochie

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What do you consider accurate in a non restricted semi auto rifle?
I think I have been comparing my bolt guns VS my semi, and its apples VS oranges!
maybe my semi is what it is?

what do you consider decent? factory loads or reloads...what should I be expecting at 100 yards?

20 inch benelli MR1: 1-4X20 Leopold being shot off the bench. Some of my reloads work better than others, some factory loads work better than others; but it seems to be a big bag of "I expected better than this"

And don't tell me your NR shoots a 1/2 minute group at 300yards in a 30km full value cross wind!
 
It seems the average nr black rifle on most sites, is 2.5moa. Here we're closer to 1.5 :).

Funny, not 5 minutes ago I was reading your thread on HBC. My XCR with surplus x39 is grouping better, no joke.
 
In a magazine's factory coyote rifle shootout, with rifle prices ranging up to $1500, an AR was the accuracy winner.

Not NR, but it sets a standard for hunting semis. Military wannabe rifles don't need that kind of accuracy though.
 
it starts out ok, but then starts throwing fliers and jumping back and forth from "part of the group" to fliers. looks like I fired two separate 5 shot strings at the same target
 
Depends on the firearm. Ruger mini14 Target has had 1 moa area with a bit over (heavier 223 match grade ammo). Swiss Arms, 1 moa (Although not technically non restricted anymore), HK SL8 again around the 1 moa mark.

1 moa is realistic for a higher end target conceived non restricted semi, with match grade ammo. But don't expect it. Also you would want higher magnification for target shooting.

Caramel was getting world class groups out of his MR1 firearms. :rolleyes: Not sure why he sold them. :confused: I might like reading his posts and hope he does well, but I still never bought the accuracy claims. Especially when others I know to be excellent shooters haven't got anywhere near that with the same gear. The MR1, I would guess 1.5-2 moa maybe. The ergos made me avoid it so I have no practical experience with it.
 
hoochie said:
it starts out ok, but then starts throwing fliers and jumping back and forth from "part of the group" to fliers. looks like I fired two separate 5 shot strings at the same target
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What's the barrel twist? What ammo did you try in it? Rests etc? Sorry but not enough info. Also like I mentioned, I was turned off the MR1 and the crazy claims I was seeing were very hard to believe. Worth doing a search though for MR1 accuracy and seeing what others used for best results.
 
1:9 twist.
Ive tried 53gr match, 55 gr FMJ, 60gr HP, 62gr factory FMJ

I read an article that said to expect high end AR accuracy, which I am failing to achieve. Ive read that caramel has sub MOA with 77gr.
Ive made a new batch of 69gr and 75gr VLD that I will have a chance to shoot on the weekend ( changed powders).
Bought it for a coyote gun, thought it would be better than my last Mini 14,and at twice the price had expected a lot more.
 
I did a few 5 rnd groups , 0.956 0.981, 1.054 with hornady superformance 53g , with my XCR-L, gonna try 10 groups when I get a better scope.
 
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Epoxy7 said:
What's the barrel twist? What ammo did you try in it? Rests etc? Sorry but not enough info. Also like I mentioned, I was turned off the MR1 and the crazy claims I was seeing were very hard to believe. Worth doing a search though for MR1 accuracy and seeing what others used for best results.
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With a 2x7 scope and crappy Norinco ball off the bench I can do 2.5-3" consistently with my MR-1. I am not the worlds greatest shooter though.
 
Most accurate semi I've shot was less than 3/4" with 5 rounds of good Hornady ammo. That was a Swiss Arms PE90 which are known as a very accurate gun.

Wolf
 
The only accurate-ish semi I have is my H&K SL8, which has shot near-moa 5 round groups (not always and certainly ammo dependant) even with my somewhat below average skills. For the rest of my rifles, I think 2.5 (ok maybe 3moa) is reasonably honest. 1.5 with the right ammo match on a decent gun seems plausible, but not grabbing some random boxes off the shelf and stuffing them into your Norc. Nuh-uh.
 
If using iron sights at 100m, make sure the target is large enough that you can consistently aim at same point (no point trying to hit something your front post is covering.) -

I've had accurate NR's:
-AR-180B
-VZ-58

and not-so-accurate (coulda been the ammo) NR's:
-Mini-30
-Chopped M-14

But a decent group at 100m with irons is definitely doable if you do your part and have a good target.
 
Typical groups for non restricted semi auto rifles would be around 2 moa for a quality rifle once you figure out what ammo the barrel likes. Every barrel is different so just because Bob's MR1 likes brand A doesn't mean your MR1 will shoot it the best.
The best accuracy I've gotten from a non restricted is with the 2 SL8-4's I've owned. Both liked different ammo though but with their favorite food they were both capable of moa or better.
Other than that I've had a few AR's that would shoot sub moa.
My mini 14 was a disgrace, my Swiss Arms classic green target didn't impress me (I only tried one type of ammo before selling it), my AR-180 was pretty decent but definitely not a 1 moa shooter, my ACR can shoot sub moa but is has a $500+ custom barrel, I've never seen a Tavor or XCR do better than 2-3 moa other than questionable pics of groups on this site (I've shot 4 different ones of each). One of my buddy's has an SU-16 and that thing patterned like a shotgun and we tried 6 different types of ammo that day, nothing shot well in it.

Keep in mind you are for the most part buying a rifle that was designed to be a battle rifle not a sniper rifle. If you get 2 moa you're doing well.
I've never shot an MR1 but have read mixed reviews, I think they have potential if you spend the time and do proper load development or find a factory load it likes.

If accuracy is your main goal then buy a bolt action and you won't need fast follow up shots because you'll hit your target on the first shot.
 
The most accurate I have shot is the swiss arms sniper, it ships with a target that is .5MOA and I have duplicated that with 77gr SMK factory loads. It probably could do better with a custom load
 
hoochie said:
If you read this, they say the MR1 beats out an AR in accuracy and superior trigger, shooting a sub MOA right out of the box.
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After reading that article two items come to mind, one: they never mention the type of AR rifle they are comparing the MR1 to and two: the MR1 shoots MOA right out of the box with a 10 to 15 MPH crosswind and with neither of the shooters ever having had any previous experience with this rifle system at all. Talk about an awesome rifle with very exceptional (or lucky) shooters, I mean this was done with either open sights or a rifle w/o it's scope being zeroed first from the way they claim it all went down. If MR1's worked that well right out of the box they would have an incredible reputation (which they do not) and be way more popular then they are. You notice they do not mention anything more then the MR1 beats out an AR that from one of the readers own words has parts which wiggle that shouldn't (and that's the way all the AR's the one reader has ever shot; sounds like pretty cheap AR('s) to me) and they never mention any other groups but the best. So these guys never get fliers on a rifle they've never used with a crosswind and poor ergonomics (as noted by poor eye to scope relief).

As someone who has wrote articles for national magazines (not firearms, but automotive) I can tell you there is serious pressure to portray the product in the best light possible and if that means talking about the good parts only and ignoring the bad parts then that is what is generally done. It's not lying if you only mention what's good and ignore what is wrong or poor with the product. This is a common accepted way of doing things, it's simple what sells products even ones that are not that great.

You really can't trust magazines a whole lot when it comes to the quality of their remarks when discussing positive attributes of a product they are trying to push (which is basically all products), especially if they sound to good to be true. You'll notice they never said that they were able to duplicate that first MOA group made with the MR1. They did not offer a name for the AR nor do you see it scoped; (did they even scope it at all, this article leaves out many important details all in favour of making the MR1 shine) they only mention that it got it's ass whooped by the MR1, why because they would never want to upset another company which could be a possible revenue/future customer to them.


Okay I'm rambling again. back to a decent NR semi., we need more info. like what price range, preferred calibre and what it will be used for in order to make a good recommendation.
However like other's have said previously to a question that pop's up here week after week some of the more accurate and popular (or not so popular) NR semi's are in no particular order:

# HK SL8 in .223 price approx. $2,500 new, expect 1MOA (at best) when zeroed-in with a high magnification scope and match grade ammo.

# FNAR in .308 price approx. $2,500 new, expect 1.5MOA (maybe better) when zeroed-in with a high magnification scope and match grade ammo.

# Armalite AR180B in .223 price approx. $1,500 used, expect 2MOA when zeroed-in with 4x scope and quality ammo. tested for optimal performance

# RA XCR-L in .223 (also available in 7.62x39/7.62x51) price approx. $2,500 new, expect 3MOA (+/- 1MOA possibly) with 4x scope and decent ammo.

# Ruger Mini 14/30 in .223/7.62x39 respectively price approx. $1,000 new, expect 5MOA (+/- 2MOA possibly) with 4x scope and decent ammo.

There are many others, but this is a list of a few of the more popular choices that will offer good resale if you find you're not happy and need to sell. Please understand this list was just a quick gathering of info. w/o any research to current prices or w/o being an expert on any particular rifle system mentioned, just a regular gun guy's thoughts on the subject (so please do not get upset if you've managed to modify your Ruger Mini to shot better then 3MOA or were able to find that one special XCR that is capable of 1MOA).

Also note that ammo. can/will have a significant outcome on accuracy so if anything accept very high quality ammo. is used, you could expect to add 2+MOA (or more) to these stat's.

Regarding scope magnification (while being far from an expert) I would think a 16+x quality optic (price $1,000+ preferred, but less expensive options are available in the $500 to $999 range) would be what's needed to insure the easiest path to insuring the smallest groups and is what I consider high magnification with respect to this list.

Finally all these rifles groupings would/should be shot from a bench with proper shootings bags/rest (not a cheap bi-pod) used and ideally with no crosswind...

Hope this helps a little Hoochie and keep shooting/troubleshooting the MR1, I'm sure it's more capable then what it's done so far as they are a decent rifle. Unfortunately your hopes were set unrealistically higher by a less then realistic and forthcoming article on what is really the expectations of a decent, but not super accurate semi-auto. rifle. All sorted out and zeroed-in you should be happy with a good, reliable and 2MOA accurate quality rifle when using decent ammo. and optics.

Cheers D
 
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Brianma65 said:
I did a few 5 rnd groups , 0.956 0.981, 1.054 with hornady superformance 53g , with my XCR-L, gonna try 10 groups when I get a better scope.
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Just to clarify what distance were your groups made at (100yards/metres?). Is your XCR all original or has it had a new and improved barrel or other accuracy enhancing modifications added to it and what magnification/optic were you using when making these great groups. No disrespect intended, but I would like to know how you were able to achieve such good groups while so many others have been unsuccessful.

BTW great shooting and just to clarify you weren't shooting from the tonneau cover of your truck at 124 metres were you...;)
 
cr5 said:
Typical groups for non restricted semi auto rifles would be around 2 moa for a quality rifle once you figure out what ammo the barrel likes.
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^ quoted for truth, try a few different brands and bullet weights to find what works best. I consider ~2" or under at 100m accurate for a semi auto.



cr5 said:
Other than that I've had a few AR's that would shoot sub moa.
My mini 14 was a disgrace, my Swiss Arms classic green target didn't impress me (I only tried one type of ammo before selling it), my AR-180 was pretty decent but definitely not a 1 moa shooter, my ACR can shoot sub moa but is has a $500+ custom barrel, I've never seen a Tavor or XCR do better than 2-3 moa other than questionable pics of groups on this site (I've shot 4 different ones of each). One of my buddy's has an SU-16 and that thing patterned like a shotgun and we tried 6 different types of ammo that day, nothing shot well in it.

Keep in mind you are for the most part buying a rifle that was designed to be a battle rifle not a sniper rifle. If you get 2 moa you're doing well.
I've never shot an MR1 but have read mixed reviews, I think they have potential if you spend the time and do proper load development or find a factory load it likes.

If accuracy is your main goal then buy a bolt action and you won't need fast follow up shots because you'll hit your target on the first shot.
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^ I agree with most of this :)

A Norinco AR-15 was my most accurate semi auto, it would shoot 55gr FMJ into an inch consistently, followed by a Remington 597 rimfire lol. I've also owned a Mini, have an SU-16, and a few different semi auto red rifles. 4" is normal/expected for me using irons and surplus rifle/ammunition. The SU-16 is just junk, but it does fold :)


Now for some questionable photos (I assume "questionable" means "not posted by you")

My XCR will shoot 2.5" 10 shot groups all day long at 100m with cheap corrosive milsurp 7.62x39 ammo. I haven't bothered working up a load for this caliber as it's just for banging away with cheap ammo.



I hunt with my XCR and with hand loads it will shoot .223 to around an inch at 100m. I called the flyer in this pic, but regardless it is still part of the group. 1.6" total, 1" with the flyer removed. Keep in mind, this is using a low powered optic and my worn out eyes. :)

60gr Fowler HP with 26gr Varget @100m
 
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