Setup questions for reloading

[Grawfr]

I have been thinking about getting into reloading for a bit, and I'm in the research stage of things. I found much useful information here about progressive presses and dies and whatnot. But there's two small nagging questions that I couldn't really find information about, though:

Bear in mind that I live in an apartment: I don't have an attached garage or basement I can convert into a workshop or tool shed. What I have is a spare (storage) room with sufficient space for, say, a six-foot long counter/bench and shelves.


1. I am leaning toward the Hornady Lock-N-Load AP for a press. How solid and stable do I need my workbench to be? Can I work from, say, a cheap bench (say, similar to http://www.homedepot.com/p/Signature-Development-72-in-Fold-Out-Wood-Workbench-WKBNCH72X22/203083493)? Or something perhaps sturdier, like https://www.homedepot.ca/en/home/p.72-inch-adjustable-height-workbench-with-pegboard-back-wall.1000843179.html While reloading, how much pressure will I be exerting off-center on the edge of the bench?

2. I'm thinking of going for a stainless steel pins wet tumbler, like the Frankford Arsenal Platinum. The question is, how noisy is that tumbler? How noisy are dry tumblers, for that matter? Am I going to have to deal with noise complaints from the adjacent appartments (assuming I don't tumble the brass at 3AM, of course)? Will the cat ever forgive me?

Thanks in advance for any feedback and answers!

 

[Seagull]

Either one of those benches should work as long as you mount the press close the legs or add additional support. Also anchor it to the wall

Stainless Steel tumblers are 100 times quieter than a vibratory one. Ultra sonic I guess would be the quietest but I haven't tried it yet.

Jumping right into a progressive press can be a painful experience and will require a lot of patience. I suggest a single stage as well.

 

[Superbrad]

My only suggestion would be to change the benches you are looking at.... The first looks a bit flimsy and the second has pegboard, which is nice in a workbench, but for a small space reloading set up I would prefer shelves to hold powder, primers, brass, dies etc.....

I bought this one at crappy tire and it is extremely heavy and stable and the wood top is vey thick..... Pricy, but I got it on sale for 1/3 off......

https://m.canadiantire.ca/#/product...se/false/false?selectedSku=0686099&quantity=1

 

[Melnibonean]

If reloading rifle, a single stage if fine; preferential even.

If reloading for high volume pistol, you will kick yourself for not getting a progressive. All presses have their quirks: every single one of them. Discovering them is part of the gig. My Dillon 650 is no exception (which I use for both pistol and rifle rounds.....buy once, cry once).

One other thing, if you can arrange it: besides YouTube vids, see if someone near you can either come give you pointers or see if you can go over and watch them a few times. Might avoid some of the teething problems we all go through learning our way around the hobby and around our machines.

 

[redruns]

Lnl good choice.
Secure the bench to the wall to make it a bit more sturdy.
SS wet tumbling is quiet, fast and tidy. Certainly no louder than a dishwasher.
You'll want a good sized bin and some shelf space to store your stuff.

 

[BCRider]

A single stage setup is far less complicated when it comes to fixing a problem when it occurs. And they WILL occur. With a progressive WHEN something goes wrong due to something you did or the press did or just by chance then you really have to take note of what you're doing to avoid a double charge or squib in the other rounds as you correct the problem round.

Even for handgun ammo if you don't need big volumes I found that I could reload up around 150 per hour on a single stage with a dipper to charge the cases. But if you're shooting way over a few hundred rounds a month then I do have to agree that the progressive makes sense. And at the price they want the Hornady is a nice option.

I would 110% agree with Superbrad's suggestion for a shelving upper unit over a flat pegboard setup. Pegboards are simply a very bad use of volume when it comes to shop use. Shelves can store everything a pegboard does and a lot more besides. And you'll have a need for lots of little bins and boxes instead of things that hang.

Either of those benches is not a bad option although the folding bench would likely need to be glued and screwed or attached to the back wall to be stable as I'd want it to be. I absolutely HATE any shake or wiggle in my work surfaces. And so should anyone. Any shake or wiggle just reduces your accuracy and effects of your efforts.

One more thing to consider is the bench height. For longer sessions you are going to want to sit on a stool or office style chair. And when you're sitting like this you want the ball end of the lever to be at or up to about 2 inches below your shoulder height. That gives you a pretty natural swing where you don't need to reach up too high or lean over to finish the downward stroke.

My own bench is 34" high and the press is mounted on a 3/4 inch sub plate bolted to the top. That actually is too high and I have to use my chair set to maximum height. That's OK for me since I'm tall so my feet still reach the floor when seated. But it's higher than optimum even for me. A better height for the bench would be to start at 30 inches and then alter the mounting plate to raise the press up until the lever ball is sitting right between the heights of your armpit and top of the shoulder when seated comfortably. So be prepared to play with the height of the bench until it's right.

Another option that you might look into is to find an old office desk. These are going to be a touch low for a top height but slipping a few boards screwed together under the legs will raise the desk top to the optimum height. And you get some drawers to store more crud. Onto that I'd add a home made set of shelves made from stock shelving with the ends made by cutting one shelf in half and then screw the others to the ends. Make this up as a "hutch" unit that just sits on the desk.

Another option would be to make up the lower legs and support framing from 2x4's cut and drilled off site or in the apartment depending on what you can get away with. Then add a sturdy desk top bought from Ikea. Add a similar shelving unit hutch to that and you're off to the races once again.

 

[j_06]

This is from my apartment days. Only use it the odd time now when the kids asleep and Go out in the garage. Works great and was basically free. Dry tumblers are also fairly loud, I wouldn't want to be your neighbour that's for sure. Check out ultrasonic cleaners they quiet and quite effective.

 

[BCRider]

You didn't catch your knuckles when the ball went past the edge and into the slot?

That's also quite a build up. What height of furniture were you clamping it onto?

 

[skneub]

Mine , boxes full of ammo hold it down nice.
hundreds of rounds loaded so far.
powder set up is on a bench the same size

 

[Trinimon]

Out of the two, I'd go with the heavier second workbench with the peg board backing. I'd double up the counter with a sheet of 3/4" plywood.

Right now, I'm using the cheap metal Canadiantire workbench (now discontinued) but so far it's holding up and not as wobbly with it loaded down with bullets, tools etc. I think I paid $120. on sale.

If I had to do it over again and had the time, I might opt to build my own.

 

[Grawfr]

If reloading rifle, a single stage if fine; preferential even.

If reloading for high volume pistol, you will kick yourself for not getting a progressive. All presses have their quirks: every single one of them. Discovering them is part of the gig. My Dillon 650 is no exception (which I use for both pistol and rifle rounds.....buy once, cry once).

One other thing, if you can arrange it: besides YouTube vids, see if someone near you can either come give you pointers or see if you can go over and watch them a few times. Might avoid some of the teething problems we all go through learning our way around the hobby and around our machines.

Thanks Mel! I thought the Lock'N'Load AP was progressive... I'll look again. The Dillon 650 is the other model I'm looking at right now, actually. Progressive is one main trait I was looking for, along with the ability to do both 9mm (the caliber I use right now with my CX4) and rifle calibers.

 

[silverfoxdj]

+1 on the Dillon XL650

 

[BCRider]

The AP IS progressive. He's just confirming that you're going in the right direction.

Something to consider if this will be your ONLY press. If you're loading rifle rounds for accuracy you will want to weigh out each charge. Most progressive setups don't easily allow that. But they CAN be tricked into it.

What I'd do for this is instead of using the automatic volume powder measure is take that off and set it aside. In its place put something like the Lee powder through die and mouth expander and stick one of the Lee funnels in the top where the powder measure would have been. The run one case at a time through the 5 lever pulls and stop when the case is up in the powder die. Measure out a charge and then simply dump it down the funnel and go back to moving the case through to the bullet seating and any crimping and on out.

This would have to be similarly modified at need if you choose to neck size only or neck size and shoulder bump vs full length re-sizing. But with 5 die positions to work with this is all doable even if it seems a bit funky.

The other option for reloading accuracy rifle rounds on the AP would be to temporarily remove the auto indexing parts and just snick the shell plate around manually.

Mind you given how much the shell plate kits cost you might want to consider just simply buying a single stage press as a companion to the progressive. Doing so makes things like using a universal decapper die or a bullet pulling collet die a lot simpler. And it avoids the need to convert the progressive over if you need to do a batch of 50 rifle rounds.

Before our dollar tanked the single stage Hornady that uses the same bayonet bushings was only around $140 to $150. Not sure what they are now but given the cost of the shell plates if you want to get two or three rifle calibers I'd suggest that the single stage press is going to cost around the same amount. And when you also include that having the single to go with the progressive gives you an option for those little side jobs I'd say it's the way to go instead of trying to do it all on one press.

 

[Grawfr]

Thanks to everyone for the replies, many interesting concepts and several very good suggestions!


The main factor that is holding me back from rifle calibers right now is the sheer cost of the ammunition (and it ain't going to get any better this year, what with the $CDN). Yet I believe that to get better, much practice the padawan must perform, yes. That means a supply of good quality ammo... unfortunately, I don't have a world-class heart surgeon's salary to draw from. Anyone knows a rich widow with low tastes in men? Just asking...

Anyways, I've been shooting cheap commercial 9mm ($0.28-$0.35 a shot) to date and found that I'm simply not going to improve much more with it: I can get consistent 3 MOA from a rest, but I never know if a flier in my groups is because of me screwing up my shot or because of the low ammo quality I paid for (they don't fly in a consistent direction, they're all over).

I'm not that fond of the .22: it's certainly cheap and lots of fun for plinking and I've seen enthusiasts make ragged holes at 50m with their Annies, but I miss having some sort of recoil happen when I shoot my Henry Frontier. It's just not the same without the earth-shattering kaboom *grins*. The only other "cheap" ammunition I know of is 7.62x39, and it's basically useless for practicing as far as I can see (ammo quality control issues, inherent milsurp rifle accuracy to blame).

9mm was relatively cheap to shoot at maybe $0.45/shot for quality ammo like Geco, but good quality rifle ammo only begins at around $1.50 a shot and that's just for the most common calibers... It's too restrictive, I'd just not get enough practice within my budget to make it worth my while. Reloading seems to be the obvious solution.


Redruns, great news about the SS wet tumbler noise level: that just made the deal for me, thanks!

BCRider, very good points: I do agree with you that learning on a single stage press first might be wiser. I just don't want to have to buy a single press and almost immediately replace it with a progressive if I can avoid it: looking at the volumes I shot last year (2350 x 9mm and almost 3000 x .22LR in about 4 months) I'd definitely end up with a progressive setup sooner than later anyways. I can always load it with single cases until I'm comfy with all parts of the process.

Concerning the squib/double charge issue, I was planning on using a digital scale for quality assurance: all finished cartridges get weighted before being put into storage. I don't know enough yet to see what better methods I could use (proceduraly) to ensure quality. Ammo consistency is really a very close second to ammo costs in my reasons for getting on the slippery and addictive slope of reloading.

The backboard on the bench isn't so much to hang tools from (it'd be hidden behind boxes and shelves in any case) as to have something to attach lightning to, and a shelving unit would accomplish that better. You made VERY good points about the ergonomics... that's in part why I was looking at that particular workbench: it has adjustable legs, and I'm looking for some kind of bar stool with a footrest to use, too.


Concerning your latest post: er...too technical, too soon for me, sorry! A Lee powder measure and funnel on a Hornady press? Like some kind of Frankenreloadmachinen? I'm still researching the basics while I wait for the snow to melt, you know! First I need to get and read the bibles and guides, watch some more videos, then perhaps I'll understand what you were saying about connecting the expanded funnel to the universal reverse flow capacitor behind the third stage access plate in the starboard Jeffrey's tube.

Thanks again everyone!

 

[Superbrad]

The only advice I can give you as a new reloader myself (and I half heartedly tried to do it earlier), is get a good bench..... One that is stable and secure.... You will make mistakes, stuff will happen.... Having a bench that is fimly planted makes the difference between a ten minute fix and an hour and a metric ####tonne of frustration fix......

Don't ask me how I know, but let's just say case sizing was involved.... Lol

 

[madcow]

for the $$$ you can't beat the LnL AP, changing calibers is easy, inexpensive (dies and shellplate). also 1/2 the price of a 650

 

[Magellann]

^^^Thats what I'd do as well with the CT bench, double up the bench top with a good sized piece of 3/4" plywood under the press, and bolt it to the wall.

 

[silverfoxdj]

Thanks Mel! I thought the Lock'N'Load AP was progressive... I'll look again. The Dillon 650 is the other model I'm looking at right now, actually. Progressive is one main trait I was looking for, along with the ability to do both 9mm (the caliber I use right now with my CX4) and rifle calibers.

I'd get some "how to" loading books and manuals plus if you can find a mentor it would save you cash and a lot of aggravation going forward

 

[BCRider]

..... Anyone knows a rich widow with low tastes in men? Just asking...

HEY! You just git in line behind the rest of us! No jumping!

My suggestion to buy the single stage wasn't to do it first. It was to do it later on as a second press. Once you're into it you won't realize how handy it is to have a single for some side job that needs doing. Especially once you're reloading a few different calibers. For the amount you'll be reloading the progressive makes far more sense. You're on the right track there. Especailly since you're not reloading any rifle calibers yet. When you do unless it's something like 5.56 which you shoot from a black rifle in mass numbers consider buying the single stage THEN. Accurate rifle ammo loading is a whole other plate of pasta and most of us find it's easier and more clear to run off small batches of 50 at a time using a single stage and separating the operations. The big reason being that for this sort of loading EVERY charge is weighed for accuracy. The loads being dropped light from a powder dispenser and then the tray of powder is set on a scale and a powder trickler used to drop in a couple of flakes at a time until you are dead on the desired weight. Only then is the little dish dumped via funnel into the casing.

I know, I know. Too much too soon again But it'll make sense soon enough.

OK, you THINK you'll weigh the loaded ammo to see if it's right or not. But you'll end up missing some and opening others which are fine. When you're using a whopping great 3 to 5 gns of powder the variations in case and bullet weights add up or subtract more than the amount of powder. When your known GOOD loads vary by more than the powder weight how are you going to know if one round is a squib and another is a double? You won't, simple as that. There's just way too much variation in the weight of the brass cases and bullets. Even good handgun bullets vary in weight by a couple or three grains either side of the listed weight. And if you run mixed brand brass for your 9mm like so many of us do there's more variation than this between brands. So measuring for the weight of the powder in the loaded ammo is simply not going to work at all.

The thing is that you WILL run into glitches. And one wrinkle with the Hornady being an auto indexing press is that it pulls the problem round away from the station you need to address. So you really gotta watch. And since it moves all the rest as well you need to keep track of those too. You can't easily back up the bus or index around a second time.

In a way there's much to be said for removing the auto index parts when you start out and index the shell plate manually. Then later when you have things nailed down and it's all running smoothly put the auto index parts back in. In the meantime running in full progressive with manual indexing is only slightly slower than the machine auto indexing for you. But it might be good for you while learning.


In particular always run a few solo cases around the machine to double check that things are running correctly at the beginning of a session before you start loading up in a full on progressive mode.

I've been meaning to install a small mirror and LED light to let me see down into the cases after the powder station. Haven't done it yet but it's still a good idea. Or in your case if you buy the AP you've got 5 die positions. And for handgun ammo you really only need 4 even with the bullet seating and factory taper crimp dies. So you have the option of using a powder checking die just after the powder drop die. It may be worth considering. You Tube "powder check die" to see what they are.

 

[G-Man_Quagmire]

+1 on the Dillon XL650

+2!