Spin and stability

gap338 said:
Really?
Have you read "Rifle Accuracy Facts"

The fact he used a 270 and lead tipped bullets is irrelevant as he was not studying down range bullet performance or inherent cartridge accuracy potential. He used a rifle as a constant control marker and made various changes to the platform to rest various hypothesis. Whether the test rifle is a 270, 30-06 or 300Win, the principles of chambering, lug alignment, bolt alignment, thread design, bedding and ammunition run-out remain the same and can be applied to the science of rifle accuracy or precision in all disciplines.

He also used a 6mmBR rail gun in his testing - he was well aware of the accuracy potential of various rifle platforms and cartridge design.

-Precision Shooting Magazine re-published his book in 1998
-6mmBR lists it as a top resource http://www.6mmbr.com/bookreviews.html
-it is a recommended resource on Gradous Rifles site: http://www.gradousrifles.com/links.php
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Geez we may have start a new thread about Harold Vaughn, sorry for going off topic!

You really like this book! Then this will feel like your favourite Ox getting gored.

Yes I read it. For sure it is interesting. A lot like reading about some guy trying to prove his theories about Top Fuel or F1 using a Honda Civic on Regular Fuel, and then on top of it having never been to the track. It is hardly gospel in the world of accuracy and precision. But it has a catchy title. So Vaughn had a rail gun, and was aware of more accurate platforms than a 270 with lead tipped bullets, too bad he didn't use it test his theories more, he may have discovered his facts left a little to be desired. Of course he would have been annoyed to have to use a something like a 6BR instead of his beloved 270 due to recoil. For all we know a better platform would have supported his theories even better but he never went that far, it really is too bad. Back in the day it sold well, which is what it is all about.

As to Precision Shooting, I know Dave Brennan, he published a lot of things including a multi part series on shooting dirt clods, and he held a seemingly bizarre fascination with shooting a Native American Indian across a valley which was even admitted by the shooter to be a fluke. Dave hates writers and subscribers, he hates the internet and the digital world, but what he really likes is money, and why shouldn't he? It is a business after all. He may have gone too far though. Did you ever wonder why in the later years of Precision Shooting it really went down hill? Cause Dave paid $120-$150 for an article and all the really good writers told him to stuff it. Where is PS today?
 
Rick, I learned a long time ago that some people are aggressively opinionated and you are wasting your energy trying to change their mind. Look around the room, find the hardest sharpest object around like the corner of your granite counter top and start wailing your forehead on it. You have a better chance of changing the opinion of a granite counter top.
 
max-x said:
The next thought, returning to the original topic of SG is: might there be any merit in overspinning a poorer quality bullet- like the dreaded Amax, in order to minimize the effects of the above described scenario. I believe that this is what Litz observes in his first book in the epicyclic swerve page.

Thereafter, how would this attempt balance with paying the price of now needing to manage more resultant torque during the firing cycle?
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I would think overspinning a bad bullet won't help, but I haven't tested that scenario on purpose. We do just the opposite, in our discipline we spend all our time trying to get bullets just barely stable at a minimum rpm which yields the best results out 200 yards. The increased firing torque is a definite consideration with heavier bullets and faster twists.
 
Dwayne Cyr said:
Rick, I learned a long time ago that some people are aggressively opinionated and you are wasting your energy trying to change their mind. Look around the room, find the hardest sharpest object around like the corner of your granite counter top and start wailing your forehead on it. You have a better chance of changing the opinion of a granite counter top.
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I am not planning to change anyone's mind! It is the internet after all! Just pointing out a few of the other sides of the discussion.
 
I am just about ready to close this thread down.


Jerry seems to go the cheapest way guns barrels and so on so he preaches that ( and that's ok)

I don't know how he places in F class or TR or if he has ever shot PRS.

I do know Brain Litz knows his stuff and numbers. Better then any of us non rocket surgeons

I know Hornady and serria both make good bullets that are forgiving. Handle the jump of a factory rifle very well and group well

I know Lapua and Berger don't like a jump tend to not like factory chambers ( but some do shoot them)

I do know that if I put the right data in my AB program I get fantastic results ( 823 meter coyote kill with the first round)

I do know I have put 10 rounds threw one hole at 100 meters( pics and witnesses ) with Berger vld.

It just seems like there is a shat pile of back and forth going one and only one person is putting know data and research in here.
 
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I do not think you can over spin a bullet. With in reason.

I know you can under spin it.
 
Jamie said:
I am just about ready to close this thread down.


Jerry seems to go the cheapest way guns barrels and so on so he preaches that ( and that's ok)

I don't know how he places in F class or TR or if he has ever shot PRS.

I do know Brain Litz knows his stuff and numbers. Better then any of us nor rocket surgeons

I know Hornady and serria both make good bullets that are forgiving. Handle the jump of a factory rifle very well and group well

I know Lapua and Berger don't like a jump tend to not like factory chambers ( but some do shoot them)

I do know that if I put the right data in my AB program I get fantastic results ( 823 meter coyote kill with the first round)

I do know I have put 10 rounds threw one hole at 100 meters( pics and witnesses ) with Berger vld.

It just seems like there is a shat pile of back and forth going one and only one person is putting know data and research in here.
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You are the only one talking shat here. Appalling behavior for a mod. Stifling conversation that doesn't align with your personal belief system. Yup lock it down.
 
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No I am pointing out all the back and forth. The picture was a joke. Try to get it.

What sport do you shoot? And what is the max range?
 
Jamie said:
I do not think you can over spin a bullet. With in reason.

I know you can under spin it.
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This is about as far as this whole thread should have gone.

If they don't keyhole, or explode they can be made to work. The only twist related issues I've really seen are trying to get fast twist barrels to shoot benchrest groups. They just wont.
 
Lol that's funny not a selfie. I still have my teeth.

So school me in bench rest? What is the COF ?

Ranges shot and so on. I really know nothing about it. Does the COF change? Or is it the same thing every time you go to the club?

Post one picture as a joke and the butthurt starts.
 
Jamie said:
I do not think you can over spin a bullet. With in reason.

I know you can under spin it.
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Of course you can over spin a bullet. A particular rifle/set-up will react differently to the effects of twist rate.

There isn't any means of knowing what the effects of accuracy will be. A faster twist rate may shoot some bullets better than others. This will also change based on distance and MV. We know that spin effects BC and trajectory. It will effect this in a measurable way only for a particular set-up and load. There are too many variables to know exactly what will happen.

A person still has to test that particular set-up. No amount of theory will tell you what will happen. There is no amount of testing and calculations that a person could do at 100yds that is going to tell him what will happen at 800yds.

Try getting good accuracy from a light bullet out of a fast twist barrel. My experience has led me to find that it most certainly can have a detrimental effect on accuracy.
 
That's why I wrote within reason. For me I see no reason to shoot lite bullets or the lightest bullet for your rifle unless your trying to vaporize a ground hog.

I am running the 123gr Lapua with a 1/8 twist. I just started the 130gr berger and it is showing great promise.
 
This is why I don't understand what the debate is about.

The effect of twist rate are on a per set-up basis. It will change depending on what bullet and set-up a person in using. There isn't anyway of knowing how changing twist rate will effect ballistics without testing it.

I don't think any body here is trying to discredit the theory behind this stuff. The work of folks like Bryan Litz is awesome stuff. I have nothing but respect for it.
 
Wow, I just cannot believe this thread. Yes there are valid points in all directions.

Then there is the trash talking.

This is fact, the only trash talking I hear is guys against the SR Bench Rest shooters. Yet the majority of what has evolved into the great components we have today starts at the bench rest match. From what I can see a perspective from a BR shooter does not matter. He is not a real shooter is the consensus from many posting on this thread. He is giving his perspective nothing more. Lighten up on the trash talking. Let's stop hiding behind our fake handles and talk like real men with real names. Oh and my first name is Calvin.

Where did Berger bullets start? That is one example of a GREAT product started by a BR shooter.

What a F'in joke........LOCK her down. KICK me off. BAN me. What have I said wrong? Nothing.
 
Since the tone of the thread has prs shooters needing NASA worthy trajectory preparation I need to ask, what competion has unknown distances at ranges of 1700 and beyond? I can't seem to find one anywhere.
 
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