Yeah forsure if 1$ per round is the best we can get that would be a no go. I was more wondering if people would shoot copper. If they wouldn't mind then I will talk with suppliers and mfg to find the cheapest sources. If people wouldn't shoot copper then there's no point even trying to work something out.
Lead free indoor handgun range?
- Thread starter Alex1911
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Yeah forsure if 1$ per round is the best we can get that would be a no go. I was more wondering if people would shoot copper. If they wouldn't mind then I will talk with suppliers and mfg to find the cheapest sources. If people wouldn't shoot copper then there's no point even trying to work something out.
Non-lead projectiles even at cost of regular bullets, even with unlimited supply and all calibers available will not solve the problem. Very few people reload handgun ammo. Those who do, are either totally into the sport and can do just fine with existing ranges/locations. Or they are reloading specifically to make it as cheap as possible. You won't be able to carter for both in any significant volume.
Your only chance to make it work is to offer practically unlimited (or very reliable) supply of factory ammo for a slightly over the average price. Since I fail to see how you can do it given the costs and availability of lead free ammo, I doubt it will fly. On top of that a lot of ppl like to shot .22 which you can't provide.
Such that your facility becomes "secondary or occasional" location at best and can't possibly charge even regular membership prices. Being in GTA you can potentially bank on "location and ATT", but unless you can save dramatically on ventilation by going lead free, I kinda doubt the whole idea to be honest.
Your only chance to make it work is to offer practically unlimited (or very reliable) supply of factory ammo for a slightly over the average price. Since I fail to see how you can do it given the costs and availability of lead free ammo, I doubt it will fly. On top of that a lot of ppl like to shot .22 which you can't provide.
Such that your facility becomes "secondary or occasional" location at best and can't possibly charge even regular membership prices. Being in GTA you can potentially bank on "location and ATT", but unless you can save dramatically on ventilation by going lead free, I kinda doubt the whole idea to be honest.
Aside from the ammo costs (I don't reload and shoot almost exclusively commercial reloads at about 28-29 cents a round for 9mm and 40 cents for .45acp) something like a third of my handguns are .22. Can't imagine a situation where I'd join a range that didn't allow me to shoot them.
- Location
- Aaaaaadmontin AB
I wouldn't join on general principles.
The envirotards are going to lead the next assault on gun ownership by going after our ammo on the basis of lead content. They are doing it in California and it's only a matter of time before the lefty sh*tlibs out east do it. I can see an effort like this being used to give them more political leverage against us - and for us to give them that out of fear rather than educating ourselves seems foolish to me at least. I see those dummies with respirators on as they shoot -and not one of those idiots has the slightest clue about lead toxicology.
Of course it makes sense for the staff to wear respirators - they are in there every day for hours at a time. In a properly run range the casual shooter has nothing to worry about. Driving unfounded fears about lead poisoning is a sleazy way to get a temporary edge over your business rivals ... And potentially give our enemies political clout to raise our costs and harass us with costly and unnecessary safety compliance legislation.
I ain't gonna die from lead poisoning and I am smart enough to see a polecat for what it is. So - no thanks.
The envirotards are going to lead the next assault on gun ownership by going after our ammo on the basis of lead content. They are doing it in California and it's only a matter of time before the lefty sh*tlibs out east do it. I can see an effort like this being used to give them more political leverage against us - and for us to give them that out of fear rather than educating ourselves seems foolish to me at least. I see those dummies with respirators on as they shoot -and not one of those idiots has the slightest clue about lead toxicology.
Of course it makes sense for the staff to wear respirators - they are in there every day for hours at a time. In a properly run range the casual shooter has nothing to worry about. Driving unfounded fears about lead poisoning is a sleazy way to get a temporary edge over your business rivals ... And potentially give our enemies political clout to raise our costs and harass us with costly and unnecessary safety compliance legislation.
I ain't gonna die from lead poisoning and I am smart enough to see a polecat for what it is. So - no thanks.
If you're looking to attract gun owning members, forget it. If you're looking to attract tourists/adventure seekers in a walk-in carnival type operation, I think it would work well for the property, employees and customers, but the increased costs would cut into your profit margin, making you less profitable or competitive than a facility that allows lead. But who knows, you might be able to lease a property/building instead of having to buy.
Wonder if you could setup some type of isolation barrier/curtain at the shooting line like biologists/chemists use with the integrated sleeves/gloves, negative pressure and pass-though drawers to get guns, ammo & targets to the other side. That way, all contaminants could be controlled & contained almost 100%.
Wonder if you could setup some type of isolation barrier/curtain at the shooting line like biologists/chemists use with the integrated sleeves/gloves, negative pressure and pass-though drawers to get guns, ammo & targets to the other side. That way, all contaminants could be controlled & contained almost 100%.
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You probably asking the wrong group of people. Folks here are for the most part active gun enthusiasts locked into their favourite activity. If your market is large enough, a lead free type commercial range range will do well. It won't serve everyone but will serve some.
Lead poisoning is real I shoot with a family that experienced lead poisoning from shooting at a poorly ventilated range in the Seattle area. They were fortunate in that it was caught early. The cure was not a pleasant experience and from what they experienced I would not wish it on anyone. If I had access to an indoor range I would be shooting plated bullets not my cast ones. Walking down range through the cloud of smoke and lead particles is just one of the ways to pick up lead. No thanks.
Slavex can comment on the current situation but when I shot at Abbotsford they discouraged lead bullets. The range has had major improvements in their ventilation since I shot there so this policy may have changed.
If I wanted to shoot and the range was near I would not hesitate to use the facility. We don't have an indoor range at our club so for me it is outdoors or watching hockey all winter.
Take Care
Bob
ps Been a warm winter and am shooting every day.
Lead poisoning is real I shoot with a family that experienced lead poisoning from shooting at a poorly ventilated range in the Seattle area. They were fortunate in that it was caught early. The cure was not a pleasant experience and from what they experienced I would not wish it on anyone. If I had access to an indoor range I would be shooting plated bullets not my cast ones. Walking down range through the cloud of smoke and lead particles is just one of the ways to pick up lead. No thanks.
Slavex can comment on the current situation but when I shot at Abbotsford they discouraged lead bullets. The range has had major improvements in their ventilation since I shot there so this policy may have changed.
If I wanted to shoot and the range was near I would not hesitate to use the facility. We don't have an indoor range at our club so for me it is outdoors or watching hockey all winter.
Take Care
Bob
ps Been a warm winter and am shooting every day.
I'll weigh in as I'm probably your target audience. I'm a relatively new shooter who's in the process of picking up my first hand gun and I'm looking for one of those mythical Toronto ranges that is both affordable and accessible. The killer for me is no .22. I don't have a ton of disposable income so shooting the .22 is the most affordable option. Take that away and I'm out. I might consider dropping in periodically but I wouldn't become a member without the .22 option.
You hit the nail on the head, being able to lease vs buy is also a consideration. It all depends on the owner and if they know the risks. I've spoken with non gun owners and most don't even know that ranges cause lead contamination, they see bullets on tv and they look like shiny copper lol.
For the gun owners vs novice type shooters ideally could attract both. In our advertising we will be targeting first time shooters to experience shooting and hopefully convert them into future owners (happend to me lol). It would also get the word out to owners but since most would already have clubs and memberships we would be focusing on attracting new users. You would be surprised how many don't even know you can own restricted weapons and converting them is as easy as opening their eyes.
Would only work for first time shooters that may do it once every few months. Prime example of those ranges Tha don't allow you to use your own ammo in your guns
Shooters want the best bang for their back, that's why so many reload.
Shooters want the best bang for their back, that's why so many reload.
Yeah thank David Miller and Adam Vaughn for their stupid by law.
.22 might be the cheapest ammo to feed but it comes down to how much you shoot, if you go through high volumes of ammo each year might be worth it. 9mm and 40 s&w can also be economical, if your no going through tons of ammo every year the difference wouldn't be huge. All comes down to how much you intend to shoot each year.
Yes if I was a customer I would like the option to reload or buy factory reloads. I'm not into casting since it seems messy, I've always used commercially available bullets. There are mfg who sell copper reload supplies and if with bulk purchasing can get the supplies for reasonable pricing they would be available. Otherwise if the price is prohibitive would go for conventional plated/jacked ammo for the range.
Fully non toxic is more than just the bullet. The primers and powders also need to be considered.
You're seriously going to limit your target market if you are limited to store supplied reloads. And there's no way to ensure full "non toxic" compliance by the shooters if you don't limit the ammo to range supplied material. You can sell components to the reloaders but you have no way of knowing if they sub in some lead containing primers due to running out. Also there would always be those that "just wanted to try a box of this other stuff" and sneak in some jacketed lead ammo. And at a casual glance it's going to be near impossible to tell.
And as suggested you're going to greatly cut down the customer base if you don't allow .22LR.
You're seriously going to limit your target market if you are limited to store supplied reloads. And there's no way to ensure full "non toxic" compliance by the shooters if you don't limit the ammo to range supplied material. You can sell components to the reloaders but you have no way of knowing if they sub in some lead containing primers due to running out. Also there would always be those that "just wanted to try a box of this other stuff" and sneak in some jacketed lead ammo. And at a casual glance it's going to be near impossible to tell.
And as suggested you're going to greatly cut down the customer base if you don't allow .22LR.
Yes would be tough, Jacketed lead wouldn't be a huge issue since it fragments in the bullet trap with ventilation. Depends on the trap though it would fragment on a metal trap but the ventilation on the trap would pull the dust into the hvac, rubber burm would be mostly intact unless it hasn't been cleaned and the bullets are hitting each other in the burm.
Judging from the responses going jacketed would probably be best and still aid in air quality. HVAC at the firing line will just need to clear out primer and powder smoke and cut down on lead dust from the barrels.
I suspect the OP is speaking about FMJ/fully plated bullets. I doubt he is talking about completely lead free cartridges either.
I have been to commercial ranges in the US where you have to buy your ammo from the range. From what I could see it was competitively priced. At the commercial indoor ranges I have been to most of the shooters were shooting center fire pistols of some sort. That may be because of the popularity of CCW and open carry where I was.
We all have choices to make. If a range insists on shooters using ammo purchased at the range or that it be lead free or limited to fully encased bullets then the shooter has a choice. Shoot at the range per the ranges rules or shoot somewhere else.
Take Care
Bob
You may be over-thinking this and then over engineering the range.
When a bullet hits a steel trap it fragments, putting out clouds of lead dust. This dust contaminates the range and after awhile migrates everywhere. If shooters have to walk down range to post and retrieve targets, they kick up clouds of this lead dust.
If you have paid staff, they are subject to workplace standards, which are much higher than for a club range.
What you want is a range compatible with any kind of cheap lead ammo that does not put lead fumes in to the lungs or lead dust on the clothes of the shooter. That is, the shooter is "lead free" - not the range.
I have designed and installed such ranges.
3 important components: Air handling - target retrieval system and bullet trap.
Air handling. You need an air wall generating a gentle laminar flow of air across the shooting area and past the shooter. The airflow must be SLOW, so there are no eddies. many ranges use fast air, which causes eddies and brings muzzle gasses back onto the shooters. Air should be around 50 fpm. The shooting bench should be as open as possible, to minimize eddies.
Target retrieval. This keeps shooters out of a dirty area.
Trap. The Savage Snail trap has a steel catch plate at 15 degrees. The bullet hits the plate and then skids up the plate into a swirl chamber (the "Snail"). There is a gentle waterflow down the steel, so the bullets hydroplane and do not generate any lead dust or particles at all.
This costs a bit more to build than a smash plate range, but the maintenance and air handling costs are much lower.
The fact that any ammo is welcome makes it more commercially attractive.
When a bullet hits a steel trap it fragments, putting out clouds of lead dust. This dust contaminates the range and after awhile migrates everywhere. If shooters have to walk down range to post and retrieve targets, they kick up clouds of this lead dust.
If you have paid staff, they are subject to workplace standards, which are much higher than for a club range.
What you want is a range compatible with any kind of cheap lead ammo that does not put lead fumes in to the lungs or lead dust on the clothes of the shooter. That is, the shooter is "lead free" - not the range.
I have designed and installed such ranges.
3 important components: Air handling - target retrieval system and bullet trap.
Air handling. You need an air wall generating a gentle laminar flow of air across the shooting area and past the shooter. The airflow must be SLOW, so there are no eddies. many ranges use fast air, which causes eddies and brings muzzle gasses back onto the shooters. Air should be around 50 fpm. The shooting bench should be as open as possible, to minimize eddies.
Target retrieval. This keeps shooters out of a dirty area.
Trap. The Savage Snail trap has a steel catch plate at 15 degrees. The bullet hits the plate and then skids up the plate into a swirl chamber (the "Snail"). There is a gentle waterflow down the steel, so the bullets hydroplane and do not generate any lead dust or particles at all.
This costs a bit more to build than a smash plate range, but the maintenance and air handling costs are much lower.
The fact that any ammo is welcome makes it more commercially attractive.
Hmmph..... I thought I'd put in a bit about non toxic .22lr but it's not there. Wrongbuttonitis strikes again I guess.
There's some links I found about non toxic rimfire ammo but I don't see any for sale at the few places I looked for quickly. But I didn't dig deep though.
However for a "lead free" range I think you may be jumping the gun a little. In a few years I suspect that lead free ammo and components will become more common. And when that happens it'll be a lot easier to host a lead free indoor range. At the moment though it would be pretty tough.
As that zinc alloy for wheel weights has shown we CAN manage without lead. It'll take some re-designing and other work but it is possible. Just expensive and difficult at this point. And maybe not possible YET for some calibers and styles of ammo. But over the next few months to few years? I bet we see it become more common. And shortly after that the price of the options drop so they are in line with or not much more than today's lead based ammo.
There's some links I found about non toxic rimfire ammo but I don't see any for sale at the few places I looked for quickly. But I didn't dig deep though.
However for a "lead free" range I think you may be jumping the gun a little. In a few years I suspect that lead free ammo and components will become more common. And when that happens it'll be a lot easier to host a lead free indoor range. At the moment though it would be pretty tough.
As that zinc alloy for wheel weights has shown we CAN manage without lead. It'll take some re-designing and other work but it is possible. Just expensive and difficult at this point. And maybe not possible YET for some calibers and styles of ammo. But over the next few months to few years? I bet we see it become more common. And shortly after that the price of the options drop so they are in line with or not much more than today's lead based ammo.
Yes these are the exact systems we are considering. Full air curtain from behind the line and the snail style deceleration chamber with plumbed HVAC on each lanes trap to mitigate dust from impact and pull it into the trap and into the hepa filter. Overhead target retrival with digital target projection with the option of standard paper.
The digital ranges blew me away on my visits to American ranges in particular a place in Arizona (nexus). These systems can project dynamic moving targets, hostile threat/hostage threat, lane vs lane shooting games to challenge your friends, zombies and more. It's projected onto paper so target replacement is the same and also the motion capture make the targets to react to hits and display a highlighted mark on your last shot. The system at nexus was beyond other systems I seen since the have made custom games and custom system vs the commercially available ones but the quality shows. Highly recommended to stop there if your in Arizona it's unreal.
