Can I use .40 cal mags filed with 9mm in IPSC ?

MustangFrank

MustangFrank

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I am in the process of re-doing my black badge since it was 2007 since I last competed in IPSC. Since then, there has been a lot of discussion about mag capacity based on the original design of the magazine and of course bulletin 72 from the RCMP.

My question of whether or not it is legal in IPSC to shoot with .40 calibre mags filled with 12-13 rounds of 9mm was met with two answers from the instructor. The first answer was I would be D.Q.'d as soon as I fired the 12th round since 10+1 is the maximum allowed, and I could only use what is legal to shoot in Canada.

I know there are a lot of opinions surrounding this magazine issue, but is there any consensus based on facts regarding the use of these magazines in IPSC. I would love to get an answer to take back to part two of the course on Saturday. Please refrain from negative comments about the instructor as he is one of the most dedicated IPSC mentors in the Country. Thanks in advance.
 
MustangFrank said:
10+1 is the maximum allowed, and I could only use what is legal to shoot in Canada.
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that is what is legal for a 9mm magazine .

a 40 caliber mag filled with 13 9mm rounds is also legal since the magazine is a separate entity from the firearm .

does the ipsc specifically limit the number of rounds that fired more than 11 ? ( 10 +1 in the chamber ) .

does the ipsc prohibit the use of magazines not intended for use in the firearm your using ? ( ie 40 cal mag in a 9mm ) .


this could be a hornets nest your stirring up , I can see a lot of people becoming but hurt .
 
I have RO'd a stage with exactly this.

The CRO beat me to checking the timer to see exactly when the reload was. We both thought it was too many rounds out of one mag, and the couple second delay after 13 rounds showed us when the reload was.

DQ.

Patch'em with no score. Next shooter.
 
Ok, DQ. There must be that in writing since the IPSC rules say 15 rounds max. I am guessing that is U.S or international rules but I cannot find the 10 round rule except classic in minor. It would be good to know where this is found. Thanks for the feedback.
 
IPSC Canada specifies max 10 rounds loaded per magazine, regardless of the legal capacity. LEO or other folks who might have legit access to mags holding more still play at the same capacity.
 
the rule is not in the rule book but is on the ipsc Canada website. it is a regional exception passed for Canada to comply with Canadian laws:
http://www.ipsc-canada.org/exemption_letter.pdf

all divisions are limited to 10 round mags.

I kind of wish they would revisit this rule. I can understand limiting 10 rounds to production as everyone is scored minor anyways.
However id wish they'd let this be done in standard in open, as I think it would help level the playing field for those that choose to shoot minor in those divisions since it is now a trade off of a few extra rounds vs. the scoring penalty from shooting minor.
 
Welcome back to IPSC; the biggest and most popular handgun shooting sport in Canada!

First Question:
IPSC Canada mandates a maximum capacity of 10 rounds loaded for all magazines; regardless of division, gun type, magazine, etc.
http://www.ipsc-canada.org/exemption_letter.pdf
Like the instructor said; fire 12 rounds without a reload and we know you are breaking the rules and you'll be DQ'ed.

Second Question:
You can use your magazine that holds more than 10, but you may only load 10. Our officials are not Law Enforcement and do not go out of their way to enforce Canadian law.
(They also don't ask for PALs, ATTs, Certificates, etc.)
However - if, for some reason - the officials suspect that you shot more than 10 rounds out of a magazine;
the magazine will probably be inspected and you'll be DQed when the 11th round fits in it as it will be the proof that you did fire more than 10 out of that magazine.

Knowing this, the choice of what you do remains up to you.
 
sly mantis said:
I kind of wish they would revisit this rule. I can understand limiting 10 rounds to production as everyone is scored minor anyways.
However id wish they'd let this be done in standard in open, as I think it would help level the playing field for those that choose to shoot minor in those divisions since it is now a trade off of a few extra rounds vs. the scoring penalty from shooting minor.
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It would be a nightmare for our officials to deal with - trying to determine if someone was using a legit 40 cal mag with 9s in it, if they were running unpinned 9s, if the 40 cal (or 45) magazine had been illegally modified to hold 9s, etc. Major suppliers in the sport don't even mark the caliber of their magazines on the magazines. (STI, for example)

Toss in the competitive nature of the our shooters - always looking for that little edge to make themselves more competitive - and matches would be filled with actual illegal magazines in no time.

We can't ask our officials to become magazine design experts and we must never read the headline "IPSC Match raided; 40 prohibited devices seized, charges pending."
The Risk vs. Reward doesn't make sense.

Oh yeah - one more thing - internationally, the extra capacity of minor calibers has never leveled the playing field in Standard division. All the top placing shooters shoot major in Standard. It wouldn't make a difference here either.
 
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MustangFrank said:
Ok, DQ. There must be that in writing since the IPSC rules say 15 rounds max. I am guessing that is U.S or international rules but I cannot find the 10 round rule except classic in minor. It would be good to know where this is found. Thanks for the feedback.
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That is for IPSC Production division only. Most other places in the world Standard and Open can load as many as will fit within the limits of the division. Standard guns must fit in the box with mag inserted and as long as that is met you can stuff as many in as you can. In Open the mags are limited to 170mm and however many rounds will fit based on that. Typically 28 to 30.
Classic is limited to 10 minor and 8 major but that's a whole other thing.
US production division is limited to 10 rounds and Limited Division is a 140mm mag, Open is similar to IPSC Open with 170mm mag +/-
 
You can probably do it some unsanctioned 3-gun matches, depending on who's hosting it.

But not in a sanctioned IPSC match.
 
I wouldn't even bring 40 mags for use in my 9mm gun just to avoid the possibility of accidentally loading the extra one.
I do think ipsc Canada should revise the penalty for use of one though, bumped to Open for the first offence, shoot for no score for a second or something. Maybe DQ for second one as Unsportsmanlike conduct or something? Prior to the decision that allowed for more rounds in a mag of a larger calibre, it was thought a mag that could hold more than 10 9mm was illegal, hence he DQ, but as it's not illegal within certain parameters, a DQ does seem a bit harsh. But like I said, not gonna risk it myself.
 
Slavex said:
I wouldn't even bring 40 mags for use in my 9mm gun just to avoid the possibility of accidentally loading the extra one.
I do think ipsc Canada should revise the penalty for use of one though, bumped to Open for the first offence, shoot for no score for a second or something. Maybe DQ for second one as Unsportsmanlike conduct or something? Prior to the decision that allowed for more rounds in a mag of a larger calibre, it was thought a mag that could hold more than 10 9mm was illegal, hence he DQ, but as it's not illegal within certain parameters, a DQ does seem a bit harsh. But like I said, not gonna risk it myself.
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Noob question. Does DQ mean for just the stage or the whole match?
 
Freedom Ventures said:
Welcome back to IPSC; the biggest and most popular handgun shooting sport in Canada!

First Question:
IPSC Canada mandates a maximum capacity of 10 rounds loaded for all magazines; regardless of division, gun type, magazine, etc.
http://www.ipsc-canada.org/exemption_letter.pdf
Like the instructor said; fire 12 rounds without a reload and we know you are breaking the rules and you'll be DQ'ed.

Second Question:
You can use your magazine that holds more than 10, but you may only load 10. Our officials are not Law Enforcement and do not go out of their way to enforce Canadian law.
(They also don't ask for PALs, ATTs, Certificates, etc.)
However - if, for some reason - the officials suspect that you shot more than 10 rounds out of a magazine;
the magazine will probably be inspected and you'll be DQed when the 11th round fits in it as it will be the proof that you did fire more than 10 out of that magazine.

Knowing this, the choice of what you do remains up to you.
Click to expand...

Thank you for the clarification. I think the spirit of the rule is obvious in order to even the playing field although I am not sure that is a guiding principal in IPSC. There is a lot of gamesmanship but still within the rules so the playing field is not always even. IPSC says not to load more than 10 and I think that is clear.

Canadian law is a little different on this subject and has been discussed at length in the forums. This is fair in order to let LEO's compete with issue gear rather than have to go out and purchase a whole new collection of mags. We can all count to ten. If someone breaks a rule, then they should be dealt with accordingly. I'm not about to start quoting all the bulletins and CC rules. IPSC says ten. Period. Thank you for the clarification. Same as shooting 7 rounds with a revolver.
 
Slavex said:
I wouldn't even bring 40 mags for use in my 9mm gun just to avoid the possibility of accidentally loading the extra one.
I do think ipsc Canada should revise the penalty for use of one though, bumped to Open for the first offence, shoot for no score for a second or something. Maybe DQ for second one as Unsportsmanlike conduct or something? Prior to the decision that allowed for more rounds in a mag of a larger calibre, it was thought a mag that could hold more than 10 9mm was illegal, hence he DQ, but as it's not illegal within certain parameters, a DQ does seem a bit harsh. But like I said, not gonna risk it myself.
Click to expand...

There should be no penalty at all for shooting 9mm out of a .40 mag in my opinion as long as there are no more than ten rounds loaded as previously mentioned. There might not be 9mm mags available and since it is legal under Canadian law, I should be able to go and purchase a bunch of .40 cal mags which are legal, but just stay within the 10 round capacity to stay legal for IPSC rules. People shoot 9mm, 38 super etc out of the same mag marked for a different caliber. Just stick to the 10 round limit. Just like any other rule, people might still try to break it to gain an advantage.
 
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Sorry, I meant a penalty if more than 10 loaded. not just for having the mags. Back when anymore than 10 was illegal (or so we all thought) the DQ made sense, now, not so much. The other problem is that people make mistakes, and shot timers don't always count right (extra shots due to echoes, missed shots due to barriers or distance from the shooter). It is completely possible that a person could have only loaded 10+1 but people think he fired 12 before a reload, or a timer to show that. If the competitor has a mag that holds only 10 they can prove they didn't do it, but if they have mags that can hold more (legally) they could still get DQ'd.
 
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