Smokeless in Antiques
- Thread starter sportee
- Start date
I just got my first antique and, while new to owning firearms, I'm not new to them in general.
I guess my question to you pros on this is, how "unsafe" or "risky" is it really for me to take load data someone has worked up for a similar pattern (mine is a Belgian ric pattern) gun, lower the charge they found by, say, ten or twenty percent, and go from there?
I have a box of 50 Fiocchi cartridges for it plus another 50 cases (and another hundred on the way) but it's just not economical to fire the Fiocchi stuff at a dollar per shot, not at all.
I have been looking into reloading this and saw the bullet barn has a great choice of lead for the 45 caliber guns..... Is there a good reason I can't use a previously determined, by someone who really knows this stuff, safe charge and lowering it, behind say a 200 grain semi wadcutter bullet?
I realize I could use bp but this gun will come out on hinting and camping trips and will see target practice time when not hunting and on days at the farm/range. I just don't think it's practical to clean the gun every night when I'm camping.... plus it would be nice to only have to use 3-4.5 grains of powder per load. My intention is to, as was mentioned before here, visually double check every single case with a light to ensure no double loads sneak through, and also probably weigh the finished rounds just to be sure. Thoughts? And to be clear, I'm asking this to the guys who are experienced with using smokeless in bp cartridges, NOT to the ones who say it is evil/bad/dumb/crazy/whatever....Thanks for any help!!
I guess my question to you pros on this is, how "unsafe" or "risky" is it really for me to take load data someone has worked up for a similar pattern (mine is a Belgian ric pattern) gun, lower the charge they found by, say, ten or twenty percent, and go from there?
I have a box of 50 Fiocchi cartridges for it plus another 50 cases (and another hundred on the way) but it's just not economical to fire the Fiocchi stuff at a dollar per shot, not at all.
I have been looking into reloading this and saw the bullet barn has a great choice of lead for the 45 caliber guns..... Is there a good reason I can't use a previously determined, by someone who really knows this stuff, safe charge and lowering it, behind say a 200 grain semi wadcutter bullet?
I realize I could use bp but this gun will come out on hinting and camping trips and will see target practice time when not hunting and on days at the farm/range. I just don't think it's practical to clean the gun every night when I'm camping.... plus it would be nice to only have to use 3-4.5 grains of powder per load. My intention is to, as was mentioned before here, visually double check every single case with a light to ensure no double loads sneak through, and also probably weigh the finished rounds just to be sure. Thoughts? And to be clear, I'm asking this to the guys who are experienced with using smokeless in bp cartridges, NOT to the ones who say it is evil/bad/dumb/crazy/whatever....Thanks for any help!!
IMR 4227 is a good powder to use in pistol cartridges but very poor to use in large capacity rifle cartridges (e.g., 45-70 or 45-60) due to the fact that it is very position sensitive. In the 44 Russian, however, you will not have that problem, as the load will fill most of the case. I have not used IMR 4227 in the 44 Russian, but its burn rate is almost identical to 5744, which I have used a lot in the 44 Russian. If you want a mild load, I would use 11 grains of IMR 4227 under a soft cast 260 grain bullet. Your muzzle velocity will vary depending greatly on cylinder to barrel gap. A big gap will really drop the velocity, but will do nothing to reduce cylinder pressure, so it is very risky to work up a load using a chronograph if you have more than .008" cylinder gap. Nevertheless, if your cylinder gap is less than .008" you should get around 660 fps with 11 grains of IMR 4227 under a soft cast 260 grain bullet. A tighter gap will be a bit faster, a looser gap will be slower.
You might want to find out from the Bullet Barn what the hardness of their bullets are. For antique pistols, they should be down around 5 or 6 BHN (pure lead is around 5 and stick on WW are around 6) and not much harder than 12 BHN (clip on WW). Otherwise, there is the possibility of slowly stretching your frame with hard cast bullets.
I don't know how I didn't mention this already but it is a Webley .455 calibre.
I found some trail boss on the weekend and figured I'd buy it as I've been reading that it would be a good bet....What you think win?
As for bullets, the bullet barn, from what I know, has pretty hard bullets compared to what you're recommending. I think...
They have .452 for 45LC which I'm told will work with slightly reduced accuracy and possibly velocity since the base isn't hollow (I an considering drilling out the base before seating them) and they also have .454 designed for the .455 Webley with the hollow base to allow the bullet to obturate as it gets into the barrel/rifling. These are about 2.5 Times the cost of the .45LC option (35 for 100 rounds vs 77 for 500, plus the 45LC bullets are semi wad cutter which I really want to try
Advice here? Go or no go on about 3.6-3.8 grains of trail boss to start?
I found some trail boss on the weekend and figured I'd buy it as I've been reading that it would be a good bet....What you think win?
As for bullets, the bullet barn, from what I know, has pretty hard bullets compared to what you're recommending. I think...
They have .452 for 45LC which I'm told will work with slightly reduced accuracy and possibly velocity since the base isn't hollow (I an considering drilling out the base before seating them) and they also have .454 designed for the .455 Webley with the hollow base to allow the bullet to obturate as it gets into the barrel/rifling. These are about 2.5 Times the cost of the .45LC option (35 for 100 rounds vs 77 for 500, plus the 45LC bullets are semi wad cutter which I really want to try
Advice here? Go or no go on about 3.6-3.8 grains of trail boss to start?
Don't worry about drilling out the base on those bullets, it won't make any difference in most webleys. I've done that and it isn't worth the effort. Soft .453 or .454 flat base bullets work just as well or better than the hollow based bullets.
I do not believe that the HB bullets were designed for accuracy - because quite simply if you wanted to produce an inaccurate bullet I can't think of a better way to do it than making a long unsupported nose section and a hollow rear section. There is almost no solid band section on this bullet to help it stay aligned properly in the barrel.
Soft cast flatbase bullets work. The Keith Style SWC or RNFP work equally well in everything I've tried them in which includes numerous MKI/II/III .455 and 45acp webley revolvers. Out of all those revolvers, only one shot better with the HB bullets, and that one didn't actually shoot very well with anything. I believe the HB bullet was designed for increased powder capacity because we already know it sure as heck wasn't designed for increased accuracy. The HB actually allows increased powder capacity/velocity without an increase in pressure.
THE SECRET to making a webley MKI/II/III shoot well is to use very soft cast bullets and use a rather "stout" charge.
I do not believe that the HB bullets were designed for accuracy - because quite simply if you wanted to produce an inaccurate bullet I can't think of a better way to do it than making a long unsupported nose section and a hollow rear section. There is almost no solid band section on this bullet to help it stay aligned properly in the barrel.
Soft cast flatbase bullets work. The Keith Style SWC or RNFP work equally well in everything I've tried them in which includes numerous MKI/II/III .455 and 45acp webley revolvers. Out of all those revolvers, only one shot better with the HB bullets, and that one didn't actually shoot very well with anything. I believe the HB bullet was designed for increased powder capacity because we already know it sure as heck wasn't designed for increased accuracy. The HB actually allows increased powder capacity/velocity without an increase in pressure.
THE SECRET to making a webley MKI/II/III shoot well is to use very soft cast bullets and use a rather "stout" charge.
I don't use Trail Boss and have no pressure data for it. It is a very fast powder with a sharp pressure spike, so make sure you stay well below the max listed on published loads. Some others on here may have data for Trail Boss. My preference is to use a medium speed powder that makes a double charge impossible and gives a much less spikey peak pressure. Examples would be 2400, IMR 4227 or 5744.
All of those three powders you listed are much too slow for a 455 webley cartridge. Trail Boss is actually made for low pressure cowboy shooting and this would actually be a good application for it.
OP, Trailboss will work but velocity will be quite low. if you use Trailboss you need to be aware that it will pressure spike if it is compressed. In fact most pistol powders will spike when they are compressed. Look for load data - and then check the seating depth yourself. Charge the case, then with the case standing upright measure the space that is left for seating the bullet. Then seat the bullet accordingly. Don't be afraid of seating the bullet farther out if you need to. This cartridge doesn't have enough recoil that you need to use a crimp groove.
Unique is my favourite powder for all the old low pressure, low capacity cartridges because it still exhibits quite uniform results at low pressure, unlike many other powders. In 455 webley cartridges, I load a 250 gr, flat base RNFP with 4.2 gr Unique. Unique can also pressure spike if it is compressed so check the powder level in the case the same way I described in the previous paragraph. This should not be a problem with this load but obviously it depends on how deep you seat your bullet. Check to be sure and you won't have any problems. If you have questions feel free to PM.
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I forgot that we were talking about a 455 Webley. I use those powders in my 45 Schofield loads. Is the 455 Webley case shorter than the 45 Schofield case? If so, then I can see that a fellow would have to go with faster powders than the three I mentioned.
Your way, ^, has yielded best results to date over here as well, jet.
AR brass, 2400 powder(thanks for that tip way back when Dingus), heavy crimp with mag primer, worked up with the chonograph to 700-750fps, 230gr dead soft cast .454" Keith SWC.
Does not solve those chronic high and left POI's I struggle with, but in the hands of other, more competent, pistol shooters, she'll
snuggle 'em in there to poa at 15yds.
Just ignore that trough of unburned powder laying at 6 oclock in the bore. 'Tis dirty stuff at these low pressures.
4.5-5 grains of unique does just about as well, but, is not as idiot proof at the loading bench as 2400 is, and this 'ol man loves the old girls way too much to take any chances with their health.
The 2400 charges need to be somewhat "stout" as jet mentioned, in order to work. Enough powder in there to equal or slightly exceed the original BP vel. spec's. Win's point as to the cyl. gap affecting speeds is solid advice as well.
As has been repeated by Dingus, 2400 is better suited to the larger capacity carts., and will disappoint if downloaded to mild and slow in the smaller cases.
The .44spl. RR, it just loves the stuff.
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Actually Unique is almost fool proof as well in the 455. If you double charge you won't get a bullet seated.
There is no "fool proof" method for reloading - fools will find a way. How do we prevent someone from using the wrong powder? How do we guarantee they set their measure properly? Answer: we can't. It is the responsibility of each man to ensure that HIS reloading is done properly and competently. I'm able to keep my loads safe using Unique because I am able to competently measure and dispense powder. I batch charge, put the powder away and then do a quick eyeball of all those charged cases sitting upright in the loading blocks - it's easy to spot a problem. I don't mean to say that using a bulkier powder for safety reasons is wrong, just that it's not the only way. I'm not a big fan of 2400 in anything smaller than the 45 colt case. That unburned powder residue turns to gunk and attracts moisture, rust, and corrosion. I avoid it.
There is no "fool proof" method for reloading - fools will find a way. How do we prevent someone from using the wrong powder? How do we guarantee they set their measure properly? Answer: we can't. It is the responsibility of each man to ensure that HIS reloading is done properly and competently. I'm able to keep my loads safe using Unique because I am able to competently measure and dispense powder. I batch charge, put the powder away and then do a quick eyeball of all those charged cases sitting upright in the loading blocks - it's easy to spot a problem. I don't mean to say that using a bulkier powder for safety reasons is wrong, just that it's not the only way. I'm not a big fan of 2400 in anything smaller than the 45 colt case. That unburned powder residue turns to gunk and attracts moisture, rust, and corrosion. I avoid it.
Good article on using smokeless in the 44 Russian.
http://www.riflemagazine.com/magazine/PDF/hl277partial.pdf
http://www.riflemagazine.com/magazine/PDF/hl277partial.pdf
- Location
- Steel Town and The Peg
All of my handloads pictured (minus the one original black powder military cartridge) utilize Trail Boss... All contain 2.9 to 3.3 grains of this fabulous stuff.
3.1 grains of TB inside an uncut 32-20 case, a deep set .314" 100 grain lead wadcutter, my loads are pushing approximately 900 fps.
Utilizing a cut 32-20 case, 3.1 grains of TB, and a .311" 72 grain FMJ, my loads are pushing 1050-1100 fps. No chance of a double charge.
3.1 grains of TB inside an uncut 32-20 case, a deep set .314" 100 grain lead wadcutter, my loads are pushing approximately 900 fps.
Utilizing a cut 32-20 case, 3.1 grains of TB, and a .311" 72 grain FMJ, my loads are pushing 1050-1100 fps. No chance of a double charge.
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- Location
- Iroquois Falls ON
Very interesting reading in this thread. I use only smokeless powder in my .44 Russian and .577 Snider. In doing my research for data I came across this study,,
http://www.gmdr.com/lever/lowveldata.htm ,,, This info differs from most of what has been posted here in that powders FASTER than 2400 are generally used.
The basis and conclusions of the study can be found in a link on the first page,,, "The Use of Pistol Powders in Rifle Cartridges" .
I developed a target load for the Snider based on this data and have had excellent results (paper plate groups at 100 yards). Definitely worth the read even if you don't intend to use smokeless.
http://www.gmdr.com/lever/lowveldata.htm ,,, This info differs from most of what has been posted here in that powders FASTER than 2400 are generally used.
The basis and conclusions of the study can be found in a link on the first page,,, "The Use of Pistol Powders in Rifle Cartridges" .
I developed a target load for the Snider based on this data and have had excellent results (paper plate groups at 100 yards). Definitely worth the read even if you don't intend to use smokeless.
