At a lost with this m305

madashell said:
Tune it TO a 2-3"" gun ?

HA. Funnily enough for $500 you can get a couple SKS's and not be too far from that (4-5") with NO tuning.
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I'm not taking about 3 or 5 shot groups.... But a rifle that will shoot any ammo surplus or match into 3 moa 10 shot group.....

You may laugh, but that is pretty much impossible with a factory box stock m-14/M1A without spending $3K+USD on an American built rifle....

But I guess if that's not for you, then spend your $$ on an SKS.

Cheers!
 
notsorichguy said:
The gas system screw has a spring inside, so pushing into the barrel as you turn should keep it from jamming....

It has been my experience that "flyers" and "stringing" are caused when the rifle is out of tune.

Lots of folks say if it's scoped the barrel timing shouldn't be an issue, but it has been my experience that it can be a big factor when trying to shrink groups.

Whenever a new to me, or a customers, rifle hits my bench the very first thing I do is blow the rifle completely apart until a barrelled action is sitting on my bench. then I double and triple check every single thing for alignment as I re-assemble.

Usually I find the biggest culprits to large groups and fliers/stringing are (in order)
1) Op-rod alignment (loose op-rod guide)
2) flash hider; even USGI FH are not all perfect.
3) bolt lug contact
4) barrel timing

If any of those 4 things are wonky, you will have wonky groups. If those 4 things are ruled out, then it's time to start digging a little deeper. Check your gas nut, piston and gas cylinder lock if they are too tight or too loose you'll have problems. If the barrel is even 2 degrees out of TDC then you will see largish groups and stringing.

In regards to the black feather, I don't have a lot of experience with them. I've installed quite a few rifles, but I just don't have the trigger time to really form a good troubleshooting guide. But from what I have read, the barrel tension is a pretty big deal..... Frank at M14,ca has quite a few exhaustive post about this at the m14 forums.

I have also found that Federal blue box 150 gr ammo is a very good barometer of how the rifle will shoot. It is the ammo I test all of my customers rifles with before calling a rifle "done".

Above all else, remember some rifles are just poor "groupers" but are still good shooters.... I have a SAI that went from a 7" rifle to a 2.5" rifle just by tuning (and a few aftermarket parts). I believe that the SAI has a poor barrel because it should be a solid 1.5" gun what with what I've done to it...... But I can still hit a pop can at 100y off hand with boring regularity.

Cheers! and welcome to the addiction!
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Gots to say. it is awfully refreshing to see good solid advice being posted here. I don't have much time these days to pass on the M14 smithing advice/experience like I used to. Keep up the good work ;)
 
notsorichguy said:
I'm not taking about 3 or 5 shot groups.... But a rifle that will shoot any ammo surplus or match into 3 moa 10 shot group.....

You may laugh, but that is pretty much impossible with a factory box stock m-14/M1A without spending $3K+USD on an American built rifle....

But I guess if that's not for you, then spend your $$ on an SKS.

Cheers!
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No, I don't laugh at what you're saying about the M14 since I have a Springfield that's got maybe a 1500-2000 of upgrades into it (on top of being expensive to begin with) and a Chinese that has no less than about 5 grand into it all total. Thanks for the advice though, but I think your point about it being pretty much impossible for a box stock M14 to reach this standard is the OP's entire point.

My lesson from having gone through this very expensive process..... TWICE ..... is I shoulda bought a couple DPMS Recon G2's instead. Seriously ..

As for my SKS point, I'm not talking 3 or 5 shot groups either. I'm talking about dozens of rounds into 4-5 moa. Only ones that are not is when I get bored, mind starts wondering and I suck.
 
After owning 2 M305's and working on them to get around 1-2 MOA, its a labour of love process. To get there quick, work with quality up grades like M14.CA / JAE etc, and expect disappointment along the journey. To get there after a while work through it logically, with the key upgrades, and be patient. (I'm not joking, tuning M305's would try the patience of a saint).

I found about 6 components + stock / chassis and suitable ammo got me to an acceptable stage. 1.5 MOA on a good day. Since then I have struggled to get any quantifiable increase in accuracy.

If your looking for a quick fix, throw $$$ and 3rd party expertise at it. If time is not a factor, list up the components you think will give you the answer and work through them. I would really suggest reloading, if not have a good quality of 3 different types of quality bullet. Both of mine love the 147gr Austrian surplus that is around.

Good luck, and keep at it. Few rifles are as rewarding as a well set up M305.

Candocad.
 
Dake21 said:
[snip]
shimmed gas cylinder (cut my groups in half) and unitized gas cylinder (lost 1 MOA with that.)
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I was expecting the Blackfeather oprod guide to provide same effect as a unitized gas cylinder (guide attaches to the stock) was I wrong? Also shimming the gas cylinder will do the same as installing a Dlask ajustable gas lock no? http://dlaskarms.com/collections/m14-m305-parts/products/m14-adjustable-gas-lock

Travis Bickle said:
Don't go sideways man. It may be good to go.
We're trying to help you figure out if it really is the rifle/if there is a problem with it or if maybe your expectations were too high.
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I know, you guys have been great, I'm just tired of wasting time, money and ammo at the range. I wanna go out in the woods and do some real shooting at 400-500 meters. At some point I have to decide when enough is enough. I understand many of you would take this as a challenge and take whatever time and money necessary to solve the rifle. For me it's ok up to a point, then I turn to something else.

Travis Bickle said:
I would personally go back out for one more trip with it and try the recommendations thus far ie take off the scope and shoot it with the irons. Then try it with the gas turned off and if you can remove the flash hider.
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I cannot shoot it with irons when the flash hider is removed Travis. Besides, with the stock irons at 100 meters it will be quite difficult to tell mistakes from mechanics. With stock irons there is no way I can shoot as well as with a scope, I won't lie to you.

I will be out of town for work the remainder of the week. I will take time to ponder all this calmly and decide what's next.

Again, I thank you all for your support and numerous advices. I read everything you wrote, I just need to let it sink in a bit.
 
MozPhoq said:
I was expecting the Blackfeather oprod guide to provide same effect as a unitized gas cylinder (guide attaches to the stock) was I wrong?
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Yes, you were wrong in your assumption.
The BF-ORG does nothing to the gas cylinder.

Since '04 I have used shims to tighten (unitize) my gas cylinders.
With, or without the barrel band.

Do you have a red dot sight that you can use?


Don't throw in the towel just yet, you have received excellent advice
from fellow members, and I bet you could find someone willing to help
in person...
 
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Candocad said:
After owning 2 M305's and working on them to get around 1-2 MOA, its a labour of love process. To get there quick, work with quality up grades like M14.CA / JAE etc, and expect disappointment along the journey. To get there after a while work through it logically, with the key upgrades, and be patient. (I'm not joking, tuning M305's would try the patience of a saint).

I found about 6 components + stock / chassis and suitable ammo got me to an acceptable stage. 1.5 MOA on a good day. Since then I have struggled to get any quantifiable increase in accuracy.

If your looking for a quick fix, throw $$$ and 3rd party expertise at it. If time is not a factor, list up the components you think will give you the answer and work through them. I would really suggest reloading, if not have a good quality of 3 different types of quality bullet. Both of mine love the 147gr Austrian surplus that is around.

Good luck, and keep at it. Few rifles are as rewarding as a well set up M305.

Candocad.
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Taking a 4-5 inches@100 meters rifle and tuning it is fun as well as working loads for a sweet spot. But that's not where I stand right now and I have no fun. If it cannot hit steadily a coconut at a 100 meters, a rifle is useless as far as I'm concerned.
 
H2O MAN said:
Yes, you were wrong in your assumption.
The BF-ORG does nothing to the gas cylinder.

Since '04 I have used shims to tighten (unitize) my gas cylinders.
With, or without the barrel band.

Do you have a red dot sight that you can use?


Don't throw in the towel just yet, you have received excellent advice
from fellow members, and I bet you could find someone willing to help
in person...
Click to expand...

I will get back to you on this, thanks.
 
MozPhoq said:
Taking a 4-5 inches@100 meters rifle and tuning it is fun as well as working loads for a sweet spot. But that's not where I stand right now and I have no fun. If it cannot hit steadily a coconut at a 100 meters, a rifle is useless as far as I'm concerned.
Click to expand...

Give a try for the shims and/or unitizing. I'm not sure about the adjustable dlask gas lock, I would assume it works the same but I have never tried it.
 
Haven't tried the bf but I do have a sage and i only got it down from 2.5 to 2 or 1.5 on a good day. I find that my rifle likes fed 150gr blue box and norc 147gr. It's not a snipers rifle and I'm very happy with what I got out of my $1500 rifle
 
A standard unit out of the box does a coconut at 100 metres, 8 times out of 10. I think a double / triple check of scope / red dot sight and vary the ammo. (Try some polymer tips and match ammo (cheapest) rather than hunting rounds)

Strip, clean carefully and reassemble, also lubricate. There is no reason with shims / Dlask gas lock that you should be getting 2-4MOA. Have a buddy there too to use as test dummy. One additional set of eyes is always helpful.

You will get there, do not despair!

Candocad.
 
I will remove the whole gas assembly, turn the gas valve off and head out to the range tomorrow morning. The front band is of no use for the stock on a Blackfeather. If i get results i will push a little more. If not, this gun will make a superb boat anchor for the now approaching fishing season.

*** addendum, I just saw the stupidity of my comment once home. If I remove the gas assembly I have no valve anymore. :rolleyes:
 
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MozPhoq said:
I will remove the whole gas assembly, turn the gas valve off and head out to the range tomorrow morning. The front band is of no use for the stock on a Blackfeather. If i get results i will push a little more. If not, this gun will make a superb boat anchor for the now approaching fishing season.

*** addendum, I just saw the stupidity of my comment once home. If I remove the gas assembly I have no valve anymore. :rolleyes:
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Aye, let us know how she does with the gas turned off.
 
Okay!

I had sent my scope to Bushnell for waranty repair so much I was convinced something was wrong with it. In the mean time I had borrow another one, mounted it on the rifle and tested. But it still wasn't satisfying. Despite this, Bushnell said they corrected a loose part, so who knows...

Also while waiting for Bushnell I thought I may as well have the barrel cut and re-threaded by Dlask and sent it to them. They made a magnificient job.

I had also ordered a few gas shims from TacticalTeacher to tighten the cylinder a bit.

So I put everything together, loaded a few cases with 44,5gr of H4295, capped them with 150gr BTSP Hornady and to the range I went.

Straight out at 100 yards I made these two groups:

20160320_121051_zpsalwpgwt5.jpg


20160320_112251_zpsefp1blba.jpg


So at this point, without even testing any loads or playing with the ajustable stock, I'm pretty much relieved with these results. I will try 200 meters next week and maybe trickle the thing a little, but it's not that bad now. I only wish I knew which variable corrected the problem ...

A pic of the said beast :)

20160320_175054_zpsi541zymd.jpg


Thank you all guys.
 
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