1000m .308 win load options

Gunneegoogoo said:
Just throwing this out there, but to max out the V, why not push up .3gr of powder at a time until you find stiff bolt lift/extractor marks, and then go back down to the vertical spread node below .1gr at a time??

You all likely have caught on that I'm spurting from Jerry's article where he advocates for 2 shot groups. I like his reasoning, except for the 2 shot group part, as I agree with whoever said it above that even with a rest and bags, etc, human error will be present. I'm gonna do 5 shot groups. I do like the concept of using the "end measure" (vertical spread) as your outcome measure rather than using ES/SD on a somewhat low cost chrono as a surrogate measure.

Do you guys trust your chrono's to be truly that accurate?? I'm asking, not stirring sh!t.
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With the very high cost of shooting nowadays, using less rds to define the "fence posts" is not a bad idea. Also with some chamberings, bore wear is so high, excessive rds in testing will just burn up the pipe.

When I find the node that I feel offers the most accuracy, I will go back to much much larger rds counts in testing... as many as 22rds to ensure nothing goes wrong when shooting an F class relay. Then confirmed out to 1000yds in higher rds count and multiple groups but I don't see the point of proving that a load is actually 2 moa with expensive components.

I totally agree on the user error clouding results why I see no point in the 1 shot ladder test... but if you shoot a second rd, it will quickly define whether that load is worth pursuing.

AND... the next 2 rds being only a couple of tenths away are going to reinforce the previous and subsequent load. A good load will also shoot well with a tenth or two off ideal... if not, then the result is likely false or too unstable.

So testing with 2 rds per step shows the progression of the grouping and the results are valid and repeatable - group size change and orientation is repeatable. Obviously shooting in a gale or with poor form just makes all this not very productive.

WRT to chronograph, most have a 0.5% error in the clock ... do the math on 3000fps. I currently use a Magnetospeed which is supposed to have much better level of resolution. The labradar also looking promising

If the error in your measuring device is larger then the values you are trying to calculate, the data is pretty much useless... or at least simply a nice point of reference.

Jerry
 
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If you only shoot 2 rounds jerry, how do you know if the first shot was human error, or the second, or both, or that it's just not a node?

Seems like an underpowered test to me.

Asked with all respect.....just asking.
 
It is a very valid question and goes to the confidence of the shooter, their rests, set up and skill. If the shooter and set up is not stable/repeatable, when can you ever trust the result?

Do you pick the shots you want from a group of 5, 10, 20? If I pull a shot, I make note of what I believe went wrong and compare to the hole location. You have to be able to see and plot the impact of EVERY shot and compare to how you shot and ambient conditions.

If I pull a shot left and that is where the shot goes proportionate to my ooops, that load is actually very promising. If the shot goes counter to what you believe the result should be, then something is likely mechanically wrong... move on to greener pastures. Assume that with precision rifles and loading, grouping in the 1/2 min or better range is the goal at distance. If my first two shots are vastly larger then my intended goal, I see no point in proving it further as I will confirm with the next group as stated previously

So the key to precision load testing is to ensure the influence of the shooter is removed from the equation as much as possible. Shoot on a calm day with flags (lots of flags), set up for the most stable rests possible (no sleds). Sandbags, pedestal rests, proper bipods... whatever it takes so the reticle is rock solid on the aiming point. Then the shooter has to learn how to shoot with the level of precision they hope to get from their rifle.

If the shooter is not very good and pulls shots this way and that, no matter what they are shooting or how they are reloading, the end result is a mess. As they say, there are far more sub 1/2 min rifles then there are sub 1/2 min shooters.

Not to dish on anyone but the ACT of precision shooting is just as important as the gear to make this happen. Shooting itty bitty groups is a learnt skill and gear alone will not make this happen... practise, practise, practise.

And when you get to that level of proficiency, you will have your answer on what happens when the shot breaks.... 2 shots will be plenty

fast cars need fast drivers to go fast....

Jerry
 
there is so much published data floating around now, and guys with enough money to do all of the testing for us, a simple search can narrow down what powder has repeatedly worked well with what bullet and which barrel. When assembling a new rifle you just have to keep these in mind and you can narrow down the associated costs of load development. With all of the great data over on accurate shooters site there is really no more excuses for sub par groups, let the professionals do all of the foot work and then just float on their experiences and run with it, the one thing you really have to get into your head is that accuracy trumps speed and loading to the highest velocity you can achieve does not really mean your going to get the best accuracy. GGG you are on the right track starting with a .308, you have lots of barrel life to learn with, from their you'll be able to upgrade to a barrel burner and know in short time if it was you or the load, trigger time is key. Keep your targets, as time goes on you'll be able to track your progress and see the improvements, also note on them the weather and conditions, you'll learn how to learn from all of that later
 
Gunneegoogoo said:
I hope to soon have that confidence.....

I know I have the potential, just gotta get on it...!!!
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The quest to consistent accurate shooting is a lifelong endeavor... you never stop trying to improve or at least stay consistent.

In the off season, I shoot a variety of smaller and different rifles to keep the body, eyes and fingers in tune... shoot whatever you have and ensure that you are always working within the limits of that rifle. As your confidence improves, you will have the answers you need when you are tuning your ammo.

Best thing I can suggest is shoot EVERY week ... the more the better. Practise good form and keep good notes.

YD makes some real good points but I am leery about suggesting new reloaders use data from seasoned competition shooters. We almost always run pressures and set ups not common or standard so using our info can lead to some serious problems. With everything, you have to understand the frame of reference and when you understand that, you have the experience to create your own.

STick to published load data unless you are working with a rifle set up specifically for the "hot rodded" data. Always work up your loads and keep an eye on those danger signs. In a custom competition rifle, many signs are simply masked but pressure is pressure and things will come apart if too much pressure is used.

Time to start burning up a few kegs of powder and you will have many many questions resolved.

They say to get good at any tasks, 10,000 repetitions are needed.... enjoy the journey.

Jerry
 
Yup. 100%.

I've tackled a couple of the 10000 repetitions things in my life......love when it all comes together......

It's warming up here, so it's time.

I love my .17HMR for practice and wind reading.
 
168bergersapper said:
Basically I'm thinking of developing something that may see improved performance in the wind. If anything good came of today's weather is seeing for the first time the drastic effects Of weather on ballistics.
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The 185 Juggernaughts are a good choice then for your rifle, you will still be able to maintain enough velocity down rage to keep them stable. I use these bullets for FTR competition and most guys are but some are going to the heavier bullet but they have longer barrels and run pretty holt loads to keep up the velocity down range
 
Well 178 Amax it is. Just picked up a box today to start load development. I really wanted to try The Berger 185 Juggernaut but with my 1000 round goal by the end of August the hornadys $50 price tag will save me a bundle. Ill probably start with the 185s when I re barrel in the fall hopefully by then ill have the confidence to justify spending $75 /box.
 
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