Bren guns abandoned in France, May 1940
- Thread starter x westie
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...didn't those that got off the beach swim!? For every Bren gun, there was 10 fold full kit as the few who successfully swam to the waiting (and continuously moving) fleet, stripped off and dropped their gear.
I don't think they were abandoned because of mechanical failure. It was recently divulged that the landing was a distraction for a black ops smash and grab for enigma. Those guys on the beach were never intended to move inland, just hold German attention for a few hours.
I don't think they were abandoned because of mechanical failure. It was recently divulged that the landing was a distraction for a black ops smash and grab for enigma. Those guys on the beach were never intended to move inland, just hold German attention for a few hours.
Accurate.. yes...but interpolation of 3yd at a 1000yds to the infantryman's world inside the '300m line' and you will understand why there are better weapons for service as an Infantry section or platoon LMG....for both defensive and offensive operations.
Yep. My reference is Dunkirk, not the Dieppe landings.
Well Dunkirk was the 'rout' of the British forces from France in June 1940 and many many small boats from UK assisted the British Navy get the troops off the beaches... some soldiers did have to swim a little to get to a rescue ship.... Dieppe on the other hand was an assault by Canadian forces that ended in tragedy. The Royal Regiment of Canada landed at Puys and of the 650+ men that got ashore only about 60 (+/-) got home..the rest were killed, captured or MIA. There were some extraordinary heroics during the battle and subsequent withdrawal. A number of personnel who could have been evacuated chose to stay and tend the wounded...or just 'because'! The Enigma 'machine' or whatever story was certainly news to the vets I spoke with who were all pretty well agreed in their hatred for Mountbatten!
You have reminded me that I had a great uncle in UK who left Folkestone (or very near there) in a small sailboat at the same time as others were leaving for dunkirk...he went to Ostend in Belgium to find his sister (my great aunt) to get her out asap. It took him several days to find her and get her back on the boat...family lore has it that 'great aunt Amie' refused to leave without her pet budgie which of course accompanied them back across the channel!!
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A machine gun cannot be "too accurate". Ideally, the beaten zone should be filled with sufficient density of fire so as to assure a hit on any target in it. Increasing the mechanical accuracy of the gun will allow it to do this at a greater range than a gun of lesser accuracy. Covering a larger area than this is a function of adjusting aiming point as necessary. See 5-8 and 5-11 here:
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/3-22-68/c05.htm
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/3-22-68/c05.htm
Indeed, you can jiggle the gun to increase the beaten zone.
Ap, a few years ago historian David O'Keefe discovered declassified documents that point out that the Dieppe raid was a diversion so a very small commando would capture an Enigma machine that was in the German Naval Headquarter in the city of Dieppe. The pinch raid, like they called it, failed like most of the Dieppe raid. All the vets David O'Keefe interviewed said they had no idea it was about the Enigma. Kinda make sense, since at the time the enigma was cutting edge technology and any attempt to capture it, successful or not would have been kept in the outmost secrecy. It is all in a Discovery channel documentary, it is quite good.
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And in his book, One Day In August. It was a good read on it.
OK, but it doesn't begin to make the slightest bit of sense whatsoever, since the Germans would know it was gone, and change the rotors the next day. A pinch would involve removing a machine from a sinking ship. Ian Fleming want to crash a captured bomber in the channel, wait for the German rescue ship, go Steven Seagal on the crew, grab the Enigma, scuttle the ship and escape on the lifeboat. That makes a 100 times more sense than raiding Dieppe.
"Better weapons for the section/platoon ??? Really? Looks like everybody in the world had it all wrong about the Bren from the time it came into use till the 1980s (no doubt someone, somewhere is still using them). Have fun with your 1,000 yard Quick Attack at the section/platoon level...........remember to pack a lunch for it before you cross the LOD. I am out.
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I have never heard of the enigma story and doubt its veracity. A radar station outside Dieppe was raided by Canadians in the company of an RAF sergeant who was a radar expert. He was to examine or bring back German radar apparatus. The Canadian soldiers were told unofficially they were to kill the RAF man before allowing him to be captured. There was a book written called Green Beach on the topic.
How in God's name did you get '1000 yd quick attack' from 'inside the 300m line'? LOL! Was it the metric conversion? Anyway if you read my original post I referred to the 'original' Brens which were apparently modified later to widen their beaten zone. However notwithstanding this there are today better LMG options available (and being used by CF) for section and PL use.
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Tatou....it could have been that there was a secret attempt at gathering intelligence like enigma...certainly the radar story is well documented. But part of the scepticism comes from the fact that Dieppe was a bloodbath and many who were involved with the action believed it was preventable. But imprudently Mountbatten pushed it forward when the attack should have been cancelled. I think some feel that this most recent story about enigma 'might' have been 'invented' to try to justify the decision and the loss of life! Having said that..it has to be remembered that our Canadian troops were pretty anxious to get into action....which they did in 43 in Sicily and Italy!
I would go with the Bren being an LMG.
Prior to WW2 or at the beginning the Polish military had already passed an early enigma machine to the British.
Subsequent captures of enigmas machine was more for the placement of the current rotors and the days books for using the machines.
Prior to WW2 or at the beginning the Polish military had already passed an early enigma machine to the British.
Subsequent captures of enigmas machine was more for the placement of the current rotors and the days books for using the machines.
this I getting old fast ..you may recall what the CF call the 'C2'???? I sure don't recall any belts and it most certainly was our 'LMG'!
BUT I do agree with you.... a proper LMG should have the capacity to provide reasonably sustained suppressive fire...particularly to support a section or platoon assault ...and small capacity 'box' magazines aren't always the most useful for this purpose.
The bren was certainly an LMG. If the concern were capacity, folks will recall that there was limited issue of 100 round magazines. Similarly the Vickers gas operated (K gun) was an LMG with a nice big pan mag and a high rate of fire. An LMG team could swap mags quite fast, but the change to belt fed was certainly the way to go. It would beg the question, was it nostalgia or well known reliability that caused the objections from troops when the bren was replaced? Or maybe they were afraid of the new gpmg becoming another "British military procurement mystery"?
