Reloading woes <solved>

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NaviDave

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Well - I have actually started to reload after many years of equipment hoarding.

So far I have wrecked a Lee deprimer (who new berdan 5.56 existed - lucky me - I pulled one from the 1F stash), a Redding deprimer rod (not exactly sure how) and now my Redding.44 spl/mag decapping & sizing die.

I guess some metal filings from the spent primers during the depriming step flew up into the inside of the die and scratched it. Super frustrating. :mad:

My next step is to purchase a Redding .44Spl/Mag dual-ring carbide die ($100 USD) and replacement/spare depriming rods both units I have purchased.

Here are the steps I will be following (as well as new ones*):

1. Ultrasonic clean fired brass
2. Tumble/polish for 2-4 hours in walnut media
*3. De-prime brass
4. Clean primer pockets as required with RCBS hand tool
5. Ulltrasonic clean again to remove any steel from the cases)
6. Lube with Hornady case lube (because I can't find lanolin in any local stores at the moment)
*7. Size brass (with de-primer rod backed out)
8. Seat primers using Redding Ultramag press (or possibly Lee a hand primer of I encounter problems with that)
9. Measure each powder charge dropped form the Hornady powder measure with my RCBS scale (I will reward myself with an electronic measure after I actually succeed in reloading a few hundred rounds).
10. Drop powder charge in each case using a Hornady powder funnel (rubbed with a Bounce sheet?)
11. Seat bullet and crimp case using Redding die.

Questions:
Is there anything I need to add to make sure I don't encounter any more surprises?

Would a carbide sizing die not have scratched in a similar scenario? If not, then the result would just have been a few scratched cases.

Am I going to encounter the same BS when I start reloading .45 ACP/other straight-walled cases on my Hornady progressive press (with or without carbide sizing dies)?

Any feedback is appreciated.

David
 
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I have never had any problems with my process with many calibers, but I am sure someone will have a different process. I want to note that I do not do all of this in one sitting if it is 20 cases or 5000 cases.

The big thing is pre-work: inspect brass to remove split, damaged, creased, Berdan primed, crimped primers, etc. Also make sure every case is exactly lined up in the press and that any brass fired in military chambers are well lubed.

"Sitting 1:" The purpose here is to remove particulates.
1. De-prime with a separate, old cheap Lee single reloading press (paid $24.00 years ago) and a Lee Universal de-priming die. (I rinse the die every 500 rounds with brake cleaner)
2. Tumble/polish for 2-4 hours in media
3. Clean primer pockets as required
4. Ultrasonic clean (long cycle) and dry the brass to remove particulates (metal, media, primer pocket gunk)

"Sitting 2:" The purpose here is to do a second inspection before and after sizing, have just the right amount of lube and then remove the lube.
5. Lube cases
6. Size brass
6a. Trim if required
7. Ulltrasonic clean again (short cycle) to remove lube

"Sitting 3:" The purpose here is to be in production mode to make as much as possible as accurately as possible with shiny brass while the "batch" is under reasonably identical temperature, humidity and etc.
8. Seat primers
8a. Flair case slightly if required
9. Measure each powder charge
10. Drop powder charge in each case
11. Seat bullet
12. Crimp case if required

Again, each person has a method and someone will have complaints/flame/another way. I load for accuracy and not production speed because I don't go to the range with 1000 rounds to shoot.

Questions:
Is there anything I need to add to make sure I don't encounter any more surprises?
I don't do everything in one sitting because I'd go cross eyed trying: keep it slow on inspections and not mixing up your segregated cases is second only in importance to not mixing up powders. I have a progressive for handgun calibers and it automatically gives the case a hint of flair to allow ease of bullet insertion and alignment. That might be something to look at.

Would a carbide sizing die not have scratched in a similar scenario? If not, then the result would just have been a few scratched cases.
Again, the order of cleaning that I do attempts to prevent that.

Am I going to encounter the same BS when I start reloading .45 ACP/other straight-walled cases on my Hornady progressive press (with or without carbide sizing dies)?
I would say that any straight wall case will reload somewhat similar, if that is an answer. I have had similar problems you are having with 300BLK where I have to make sure I length trim before any use of a die and then test a case or two.
 
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Thanks for the lanolin lead.

I recently purchased Wilson case gauges for .30/06, .308 and .223 (to verify rounds for semi-autos). I will add to the collection later this fall when I make my regular trip to the US.
 
OP, you are over thinking and doing every thing, whether needed or not, the hard and slow way.
Your reloads will be no better than the reloads turned out by those of us who,
1) Only tumble cases when they are dirty and need cleaning. A stained case is not a dirty case.
2) Only rarely, when it is needed, clean the primer pockets.
3) Set our powder measure, by careful use of the scale, then load the cases directly from the powder measure, checking about one in ten, then if all is well, go to one in twenty, plus always doing a visual check at the powder level in the case. Only for long range competitive shooting would we weigh the powder in every case.
4) Use one operation to size and deprime, after lubing the case, including the inside of the neck, unless using straight wall cases and carbide dies, where no lubing is required.

Just check the length of the fired cases on a regular basis, to make sure they don't get to a dangerous length.
In short, make reloading a pleasant part of the shooting process, not a long, time consuming chore.
 
My Process is as follows, it's for rifles but a lot of it still applies:
1- Lube, decap and full length resize, .001"-.002" shoulder bump. I now use a Redding Full Length sizing die.
2- Trim, chamfer and deburr using Lee Quick Trim. The quick trim is set to max SAAMI, it's quicker to run all the cases through than to measure which ones need trimming.
3- Touch up case mouth and clean primer pocket with RCBS case master.
4- Wet tumble with SS pins for 2 hours. 100 cases of .308 and 5 lbs of pins.
5- Dry cases on shoe rack in dryer and leave overnight.
6- Prime all cases using RCBS press.
7- Load case and seat bullet, I use an RCBS Charge Master and Forster seating die.
8- Measure runout, rework any rounds over .002" TIR. I measure runout during the time the Charge Master dispenses powder for the next round, less down time this way.

It's about 1.5 hours of work in total per 100 loaded rounds, not counting tumbling and drying times. All my rounds end up .0005"-.002" TIR. Everything over that gets reworked.
 
Perhaps I'm missing something, but I am having difficulty understanding how soft brass from the primer can scratch the harder steel in the die. According to my limited Google search, zinc is 2.5 MOHs, copper is 3. If the primers were nickel plated, then the nickel is 4 and steel is 4-4.5.

The only time I have scratched anything while reloading, it has been cases, because I have gotten dirt on them somehow.

That being said, my dirty brass does not go near my reloading equipment until it has been cleaned. Once I have lubed my cases, I size them immediately and then they are cleaned again before proceeding.
 
Great question. I will take some close up pics. I am not sure there the contamination came from. All the brass was 1F and clean.

I assumed that some part of the primer was steel and that broke up and somehow contaminated the die (brand new).

I noticed it after I saw brass flakes, then checked the case for scratches.

The story of my life - if something technical can go wrong - it will.
 
Aniest said:
I have never had any problems with my process with many calibers, but I am sure someone will have a different process. I want to note that I do not do all of this in one sitting if it is 20 cases or 5000 cases.

The big thing is pre-work: inspect brass to remove split, damaged, creased, Berdan primed, crimped primers, etc. Also make sure every case is exactly lined up in the press and that any brass fired in military chambers are well lubed.

"Sitting 1:" The purpose here is to remove particulates.
1. De-prime with a separate, old cheap Lee single reloading press (paid $24.00 years ago) and a Lee Universal de-priming die. (I rinse the die every 500 rounds with brake cleaner)
2. Tumble/polish for 2-4 hours in media
3. Clean primer pockets as required
4. Ultrasonic clean (long cycle) and dry the brass to remove particulates (metal, media, primer pocket gunk)

"Sitting 2:" The purpose here is to do a second inspection before and after sizing, have just the right amount of lube and then remove the lube.
5. Lube cases
6. Size brass
6a. Trim if required
7. Ulltrasonic clean again (short cycle) to remove lube

"Sitting 3:" The purpose here is to be in production mode to make as much as possible as accurately as possible with shiny brass while the "batch" is under reasonably identical temperature, humidity and etc.
8. Seat primers
8a. Flair case slightly if required
9. Measure each powder charge
10. Drop powder charge in each case
11. Seat bullet
12. Crimp case if required

Again, each person has a method and someone will have complaints/flame/another way. I load for accuracy and not production speed because I don't go to the range with 1000 rounds to shoot.

Questions:
Is there anything I need to add to make sure I don't encounter any more surprises?
I don't do everything in one sitting because I'd go cross eyed trying: keep it slow on inspections and not mixing up your segregated cases is second only in importance to not mixing up powders. I have a progressive for handgun calibers and it automatically gives the case a hint of flair to allow ease of bullet insertion and alignment. That might be something to look at.

Would a carbide sizing die not have scratched in a similar scenario? If not, then the result would just have been a few scratched cases.
Again, the order of cleaning that I do attempts to prevent that.

Am I going to encounter the same BS when I start reloading .45 ACP/other straight-walled cases on my Hornady progressive press (with or without carbide sizing dies)?
I would say that any straight wall case will reload somewhat similar, if that is an answer. I have had similar problems you are having with 300BLK where I have to make sure I length trim before any use of a die and then test a case or two.
Click to expand...

Precisely the answers I would have given, complete to the cheapy Lee press fitted with a universal depriming die, dedicated to depriming. My only difference is that I don't both cleaning the brass more than once, but then I am not going for super accuracy.
 
I think I know what happened.
ouch.jpg

One piece of 1F brass must have had some sand in the primer (even after the ultrasonic clean and tumbling). I have a used RCBS die set that I picked up from somewhere (it's in the cleaner now). I can source some 500 grit silicon carbide wet sandpaper and polish the Redding sizing die using the lathe at the local Gunsmith.

I had better bring in decapping tools and spare parts by the ton if my experience so far is any indication. I am down to the large deprimer in my Redding kit (25 cal+)

Lesson: Decap and thoroughly clean ALL brass that's new to you before you let it near your rather expensive sizing dies.
 

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For your next purchase, carbide dies for the win!

Lanolin 1 part, isopropyl alcohol (99%) 10 parts (mixed in a squirt bottle) for full sizing of rifle brass, but once it is fired from your gun, just neck size; no lube required. With most pistol brass I do not use lube, but when I do, I notice the difference in pressure when resizing. The longer the brass, you may want to lube it (44, 38spl). You can purchase lanolin and alcohol from nearly any pharmacy; typically from behind the prescription counter. Any pharmacy that prepares ointments/creams will have it.
 
Even expensive dies have poor internal finish. Even a Forster die that I bought had ####ty finish, i sent it back, and they sent it to me slightly better but still ####ty..... Redding has a poor finish also.

Seriously, so far, the lee dies have had the best finish. Its quite a shame that lee can do it at this price point and more expensive dies don't even ship with a smooth internal surface.

Forster immediately blamed the ####ty internal finish on the brass. He said that the single brand new lubed case that i tested in his die must not have been chamfered and that caused the extreme ####ty finish inside his die. Oh yeah... Seriously.
 
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H4831 said:
OP, you are over thinking and doing every thing, whether needed or not, the hard and slow way.
Your reloads will be no better than the reloads turned out by those of us who,
1) Only tumble cases when they are dirty and need cleaning. A stained case is not a dirty case.
2) Only rarely, when it is needed, clean the primer pockets.
3) Set our powder measure, by careful use of the scale, then load the cases directly from the powder measure, checking about one in ten, then if all is well, go to one in twenty, plus always doing a visual check at the powder level in the case. Only for long range competitive shooting would we weigh the powder in every case.
4) Use one operation to size and deprime, after lubing the case, including the inside of the neck, unless using straight wall cases and carbide dies, where no lubing is required.

Just check the length of the fired cases on a regular basis, to make sure they don't get to a dangerous length.
In short, make reloading a pleasant part of the shooting process, not a long, time consuming chore.
Click to expand...

Exactly what I would do as well. I very seldom polish brass. have never seen a difference in reliability or accuracy, particularly with hand gun ammo.
 
After looking at your picture I went and looked at 4 different die sets I have close by. two rifle .308 and .30-06 and 44 mag and 357 mag. all the non carbide dies look at lot like yours maybe a little less. they are not really smooth like you would think they should be. RCBS is the worst Lyman next and Hornady the best but from what I have experienced with marks on my brass etc. I really haven't seen anything that would mark the die it self as the brass is way softer then the steel so all marks would be on the brass. The only thing that would possibly mark your dies is if some one had a stuck case and made a total F--Kup of getting it out. as for polishing the inside of the dies If you took enough off to get the marks out I would think the die would then be oversized. Let us know how it works out I am curious.
 
I think it is the Winchester brass (.44 cowboy loads). I don't think those are scratches - I think they are "brass smears".

Tiny flecks are coming off at the start of sizing and are being dragged down. My RCBS sizing die cleaned up to a mirror finish after ultrasonic cleaning. After sizing 5 pieces or so, I noticed the same marks on the brass and on the die. The brass must be brittle and tiny pieces are breaking off.

I was able to lessen the scratches on the RCBS die with cold stove cleaner and some scrubbing/poking with a needle. I am leave it soaked in stove cleaner overnight and will try some steel wool tomorrow.

I will try sizing some other .44spl brass I have - 5-10 of each brand and watch for any traces of scratches. I do know that I deprimed and sized about 100 pieces of .44mag brass a while back using the Redding die and did not have the same problem.
 
Well - the "brass" flakes definitely scratched the non-carbide dies. Why do they even bother making non-carbide dies :confused:? I am going to toss that Winchester .44spl brass as there was zero chance of contamination when I set up the RCBS die.

I do know that you can polish them to lessen the scratches - but yes you have to use the right technique/media. I will see if the local machine shop can polish the dies without changing the inner diameter much. One thing I did notice - the RCBS die felt like it sized the Redding resized brass again. I assume that there is some +/- to case sizing that is acceptable.

I guess I will have to place an order for Redding CARBIDE dies with Natchez. Would plain carbide dies be acceptable or would the single or dual ring sizing dies be worth it?

Once thing that was not mentioned was case chamfer. Redding has come out with a nifty "Piloted Debur and Chamfer" Tool (09060). Looks like a winner to me.
 
Dude just buy a set of lee carbide dies and be done with it. They work and are cheap. This thread is getting overly complicated for nothing. Its just 44 pistol, its not 308 benchrest, you do not need anything fancy to load 44

The only reason that You might prefer other brands of dies is if you prefer a longer die for a dillon press, or a design that is easier to clean without readjusting like the dillon dies.

Other than that, for pistol anyway, i just spray some brake cleaner in e dies every 1000 rounds...
 
H4831 said:
OP, you are over thinking and doing every thing, whether needed or not, the hard and slow way.
Your reloads will be no better than the reloads turned out by those of us who,
1) Only tumble cases when they are dirty and need cleaning. A stained case is not a dirty case.
2) Only rarely, when it is needed, clean the primer pockets.
3) Set our powder measure, by careful use of the scale, then load the cases directly from the powder measure, checking about one in ten, then if all is well, go to one in twenty, plus always doing a visual check at the powder level in the case. Only for long range competitive shooting would we weigh the powder in every case.
4) Use one operation to size and deprime, after lubing the case, including the inside of the neck, unless using straight wall cases and carbide dies, where no lubing is required.

Just check the length of the fired cases on a regular basis, to make sure they don't get to a dangerous length.
In short, make reloading a pleasant part of the shooting process, not a long, time consuming chore.
Click to expand...

What he said. I've loaded actually tens of thousands of rounds since 1972; rifle, shotgun, and pistol. I haven't had your problems. Keep it simple, but pay attention for anything that doesn't look or feel right.
 
H4831 nailed it. You're just starting to reload and you're better off to keep it as simple as you can. You shouldn't concentrate on producing match-quality ammo in your first batch, fine tune later when you have a good handle on the basic processes and the learning curve has started to flatten out.
 
Apparently this is a thing (and I am not crazy): http://www.redding-reloading.com/tech-line-a-tips-faqs/149-scratched-cases-causes-and-cures

I did pick up a set of $20 used CH 44spl dies that are in good shape (resize, deprime and flare is done in a single step). I may try processing a few more of this brass lot and check for flaking after sizing each one.

In the meantime, my friend is on the lookout for an almost scrap but still functional metal lathe that can at least spin the dies so I can polish them myself.

One thing to note - the Hornady carbide dies have a short sizing ring (I have a set in .40). It seems to me that brass flakes would take longer to contaminate the die with this design. I would not expect the brass to "weld" to the ring the same way as the "steel" dies either.
 
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