1/2 inch at 50 trouble. Imput appreciated !

Canadiankeeper

Canadiankeeper

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Ok, so I forgot to take a picture. I know I know, my bad.

I am having some issue with my savage HB 22lr on this challenge...

Its dropped into a boyd's pro varmint (tacticool) with a tacpro cheek riser...

Everything is as it should be, but this gun HATES match ammo. I haven't tried ELEY as I cant get it locally. But Federal match, S&B, Remmington match, you name it. Will not group.

It will though eat the CCI mini mags up all day long. I can put 4 right ontop of each other, atleast 1 out of 5 goes way off into who knows where.

I wish I took a pic of my target today at the attempt because literally every group is a clover with a flyer high right 1 inch... I couldn't belive it... I am 99.9% sure its not me.

Has anyone tried weighing the ammo for discrepancies ? I had one group today that was good without a flyer, a lot that may have squeaked in. Never 5 groups without a BIG flyer.

It has to be the ammo, anyone else have this issue ? I know the rifle can group under 1/2 inch at 50.
 
...With all other factors remaining the same, what else could it be? How long are you waiting between shots (Is it always the last shot that's the flyer? Or random?)?

Wind?

Bad gas? Did you eat spicy food before shooting these groups?
 
Scotty454 said:
...With all other factors remaining the same, what else could it be? How long are you waiting between shots (Is it always the last shot that's the flyer? Or random?)?

Wind?

Bad gas? Did you eat spicy food before shooting these groups?
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less then 2mph wind today may as well have been indoors. Barrel heat doesn't seem to affect the rifle much at all, load a ten round mag blast all 10 rounds. 2 will fly. Tried with cold barrel, hot barrel, warm barrel you name it.

weasel1 said:
I've had better luck with CCI AR Tactical vs using Mini Mags.
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damn, I have like 400 rounds of the mini mags

bsand said:
Have you tried sk std plus? I've been getting amazing results with it oi of my sr-fv
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Have not, will look for some.

diopter said:
Are you keeping your head (cheek rest) on EXACTLY on the same spot on the stock?
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Not moving it between shots at all. Stays rested.
 
Canadiankeeper said:
It has to be the ammo, anyone else have this issue ? I know the rifle can group under 1/2 inch at 50.
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I have experienced exactly this with several rifles using even the finest ammo. If you are putting 4 into one hole and then you get one go Waaaaay out, it is not the ammo. Not even a consideration at 50 yards with good ammo. The ammo you list, hate to tell you, isn't really "match" ammo. Unless the Federal was the UM22, the other stuff they make is pretty junky. All of this stuff should shoot under an inch at 50 yards even if the rifle doesn't like it though. I've tried sorting by rim thickness and weighing rounds, no difference seen.

It's your barrel. It is full of tool marks which get packed with fouling as you shoot then a tipping point is reached and one round goes for a hike. Cycle repeats. Do you also get any vertical stringing? I've seen 5 shots climb higher like a ladder, with next to zero horizontal dispersion. I have my theories about how this all happens and it has to do with the relationship between tool marks in the barrel and how fouling builds up and lets go as you shoot. It can act like a speed bump, each round passing by depositing a little more lead onto it growing in size (vertical stringing) then it finally breaks free and attaches to the bullet which will alter it's center of gravity with a booger hanging off one side so way off course it goes. Theory of course can't actually observe what's going on in the barrel but it makes sense to me.

Pics of your targets are needed for me to make a better assessment of the situation you're in. How many rounds fired through this rifle in total? Cleaning regime? The majority of new factory barrels will exhibit this tendency to varying degrees so don't despair. You should see the frequency and severity of the fliers lesson as you approach milestones in rounds fired like 500, 1000, 1500 etc. A good cleaning with JB bore paste can help smooth things out.

I have a Savage MKII BTVS and a borescope so I know how these rifles look in the barrel. The chambering job should be good and assuming no major tool marks or defects are present what's left are shallow reamer marks all the way down the barrel (like train tracks) which will smooth over in time. If you're serious about beating the challenge order up a brick of SK Std+ and Rifle match. It's great stuff for the price and all my rifles love it so far. My rifle can shoot great groups, will beat the challenge every time I take it out but every now and then fliers pop up. Here's a recent target shot with SK Rifle Match



You can see the cycle with the fouling building, great start then groups 3 & 4 nearly blow up over 1/2", settles down for a group the WOAH 3/4" group, 0.6" group, 1/2" group then back under 1/2" for two groups to finish the box of 50. It took a lot of shooting and cleaning to get this rifle to this point as it used to shoot mostly in the 1/2" - 1" range. I expect it to continue to improve but I just don't shoot it much these days. There ya have it. Shoot it tons, clean it well, feed it good stuff now and then to check progress and you'll get it done.
 
Maybe, but, do you clean the barrel after every session? I just clean the chamber, bolt face, and muzzle/crown until barrel really needs a serious cleaning when lead streaks the crown.
Then it may take 20-30 rounds to lay down a consistent layer under the bullet again. Most of my rifles were broken in a long time ago.
 
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Underthegun said:
Paralax?
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Is appropriately set, had my 700 in 223 out while letting 22 cool. Match grade ammo, put 3 rounds in 1 ragged hole.

I checked parallax repetitively lol.

RabidM4U5 said:
I have experienced exactly this with several rifles using even the finest ammo. If you are putting 4 into one hole and then you get one go Waaaaay out, it is not the ammo. Not even a consideration at 50 yards with good ammo. The ammo you list, hate to tell you, isn't really "match" ammo. Unless the Federal was the UM22, the other stuff they make is pretty junky. All of this stuff should shoot under an inch at 50 yards even if the rifle doesn't like it though. I've tried sorting by rim thickness and weighing rounds, no difference seen.

It's your barrel. It is full of tool marks which get packed with fouling as you shoot then a tipping point is reached and one round goes for a hike. Cycle repeats. Do you also get any vertical stringing? I've seen 5 shots climb higher like a ladder, with next to zero horizontal dispersion. I have my theories about how this all happens and it has to do with the relationship between tool marks in the barrel and how fouling builds up and lets go as you shoot. It can act like a speed bump, each round passing by depositing a little more lead onto it growing in size (vertical stringing) then it finally breaks free and attaches to the bullet which will alter it's center of gravity with a booger hanging off one side so way off course it goes. Theory of course can't actually observe what's going on in the barrel but it makes sense to me.

Pics of your targets are needed for me to make a better assessment of the situation you're in. How many rounds fired through this rifle in total? Cleaning regime? The majority of new factory barrels will exhibit this tendency to varying degrees so don't despair. You should see the frequency and severity of the fliers lesson as you approach milestones in rounds fired like 500, 1000, 1500 etc. A good cleaning with JB bore paste can help smooth things out.

I have a Savage MKII BTVS and a borescope so I know how these rifles look in the barrel. The chambering job should be good and assuming no major tool marks or defects are present what's left are shallow reamer marks all the way down the barrel (like train tracks) which will smooth over in time. If you're serious about beating the challenge order up a brick of SK Std+ and Rifle match. It's great stuff for the price and all my rifles love it so far. My rifle can shoot great groups, will beat the challenge every time I take it out but every now and then fliers pop up. Here's a recent target shot with SK Rifle Match

You can see the cycle with the fouling building, great start then groups 3 & 4 nearly blow up over 1/2", settles down for a group the WOAH 3/4" group, 0.6" group, 1/2" group then back under 1/2" for two groups to finish the box of 50. It took a lot of shooting and cleaning to get this rifle to this point as it used to shoot mostly in the 1/2" - 1" range. I expect it to continue to improve but I just don't shoot it much these days. There ya have it. Shoot it tons, clean it well, feed it good stuff now and then to check progress and you'll get it done.
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Your target 6 is what I get 80% of the time.

Ok maybe not WAY out, but 1/2 inch - a full inch out

Glad no difference was seen, I wont waste my time.

No stringing, no tool marks. Clean as a whistle.

I will get pics next weekend 100%

It is not at the 500 round marker yet. Right around 300. Fairly new rifle. Had the initial clean, then just a g96 on patches till they came clean after second range trip. Did the same today, g96 till clean. (titanium jag, carbon fiber rod)

Links for SK? I just want the name on the bord, then I will shoot mini mags and deal with the fly's all day. (unless I'm doing any of the 22 rimfire competitions against my friends like LRS of Utah do)

diopter said:
Maybe, but, do you clean the barrel after every session? I just clean the chamber, bolt face, and muzzle/crown until barrel really needs a serious cleaning when lead streaks the crown.
Then it may take 20-30 rounds to lay down a consistent layer under the bullet again. Most of my rifles were broken in a long time ago.
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See above for cleaning.
 
diopter said:
Maybe, but, do you clean the barrel after every session? I just clean the chamber, bolt face, and muzzle/crown until barrel really needs a serious cleaning when lead streaks the crown.
Then it may take 20-30 rounds to lay down a consistent layer under the bullet again. Most of my rifles were broken in a long time ago.
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Since I tend to shoot about 500 rounds per session, yes I usually give a thorough cleaning after shooting. I usually see my groups tighten up after 15 shots to season it. Not pictured on the top half of that target was another set of 10 groups of Standard plus used to season the barrel.

I've experienced a couple barrels with defects that no amount of "break-in" will cure. Also have one that has shot the odd .2" group but usually spits out fliers to 0.6"-0.8" every other group so will never beat the challenge. That barrel has several deep gouges in it one at the chamber, one mid way down the barrel and one close to the muzzle. Surprising it shoots as well as it does I suppose it's just random luck how the tool marks are arranged in the barrel and how that affects the fouling and fliers.
 
Canadiankeeper said:
Ok maybe not WAY out, but 1/2 inch - a full inch out

It is not at the 500 round marker yet. Right around 300. Fairly new rifle. Had the initial clean, then just a g96 on patches till they came clean after second range trip. Did the same today, g96 till clean. (titanium jag, carbon fiber rod)

Links for SK? I just want the name on the bord, then I will shoot mini mags and deal with the fly's all day. (unless I'm doing any of the 22 rimfire competitions against my friends like LRS of Utah do)
Click to expand...

Ok good that's what I want to hear. Even my new Annie 64 MSR shot like that at first and after 1000 rounds it is finally capable of the challenge. I'm just taking my time to post a really good target with it not one that barely passes.

Hirsch Precision has SK click the sponsor link at the top of the page.

I'd just pound some cheap ammo through it to get the round count up above 750, clean really well after each session then get down to business on the challenge.
 
Canadiankeeper said:
less then 2mph wind today may as well have been indoors. Barrel heat doesn't seem to affect the rifle much at all, load a ten round mag blast all 10 rounds. 2 will fly. Tried with cold barrel, hot barrel, warm barrel you name it
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Have you tried single feeding your rounds as apposed to feeding from the magazine?
 
RabidM4U5 said:
Ok good that's what I want to hear. Even my new Annie 64 MSR shot like that at first and after 1000 rounds it is finally capable of the challenge. I'm just taking my time to post a really good target with it not one that barely passes.

Hirsch Precision has SK click the sponsor link at the top of the page.

I'd just pound some cheap ammo through it to get the round count up above 750, clean really well after each session then get down to business on the challenge.
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good to hear, thanks.

Engineer said:
Have you tried single feeding your rounds as apposed to feeding from the magazine?
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I have not.
 
It's the ammo, for one. None of the ammo listed is truly match ammo, as RabidM4U5 observes. Even SK Standard Plus is best described as entry level match ammo.

Another factor is shooting five groups of five shots that are less than half-an-inch is not as easy as many people might suggest. Shooting three or four into one hole and having one "stray" is nothing new, especially when shooting a sporter rifle. I do it all the time, and that's with rifles like Anschutz and Walther (and even CZ), that are capable of meeting the challenge. Today I shot a Walther and I would not have met the challenge. Even though there were mostly good groups, every fourth or fifth group today had three or four shots that were really nice and one that was not. I wouldn't rush to blame the barrel, although it's entirely possible that a Savage barrel is not machined like a custom barrel. The bottom line is that it's a challenge to shoot the challenge.
 
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