Whew! That was close!
- Thread starter MajorMalcontent
- Start date
It takes pressure to ignite powder.
The primer generate 10,000psi, which pops the bullet, killing the pressure.
No, not making any sense. Powder is NOT ignited by pressure, it is ignited by flame. Pressure may help the powder burn quicker and more completely.
IF the primer ignited then the powder or at least most of the powder would have burned. There is NO POSSIBLE way the primer ignited without also igniting the powder.
There is also no way that a kinetic puller could ignite a primer.
IF the primer ignited then the powder or at least most of the powder would have burned. There is NO POSSIBLE way the primer ignited without also igniting the powder.
There is also no way that a kinetic puller could ignite a primer.
I have had a situation where the primer fired and the powder did not light. I changed primers and the load fired.
Having said that, the load I am talking about was a magnum load, pretty sure we are talking about different powders here. The primers were CCI and had been around for a while. They had worked with a different powder in a different rifle. In the situation where the primer fired and the load didn't, the bullet would be just into the rifling.
I am thinking the primers had deteriorated over the years to where they would fire but not give off enough heat to light that powder.
Hey, all I can say is I have as much experience as anyone pulling bullets. I started reloading in 1985. This has never happened before. With all due respect, I was there, you were not. This was most definitely NOT a case of inertia/momentum of the bullet extracting and deflecting up and knocking the case out of the puller. The case virtually exploded out of there, so fast I couldn't see it, and fast enough that it hit the ceiling above with a heck of a lot of force. I have propelled things with primer power on purpose many times; I used to have a .357 and I would use those plastic practice cartridges that fired a plastic projectile just by force of the primer. This case was moving that fast.
And for the record, I have recently had to pull .17 cal bullets and have swung my puller equally hard as I did in this scenario without event. These primers are at least 25 years old; I don't know if something has changed over time either in the chemistry of them or the mechanicals of manufacture.
I still have been unable to locate the case in question. It bounced off a lot of stuff and landed somewhere tricky. If I find it, I will try to fire that primer; I'll update the internet if/when that happens.
I don't know how to explain it mechanically. I know how primers are made and work. So I wouldn't think it would be possible either. However I know what I experienced and it was not simply a case of a bullet coming out of the case hard.
As I said, just within the last week I read another thread somewhere (don't recall if on this forum or another) where someone was describing the exact same experience. When I read his account I thought it was hard to imagine how the primer could go off but now that I've experienced it myself, I'm a believer.
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I can see pressure doing it either. A squib (no powder in case), the primer has enough pressure to push the bullet into the barrel. Most likely, the powder was already in the puller with the bullet. without the bullet in a barrel, the bullet would not launch the projectile forward.
Changing only the primers? did you reload the round completely?
Major, primers 25 years old can be considered as new. I am currently using primer that were made in 1965 and they are perfect. That case, with the primer in it, is in your house, room you were using, so you should be able to find it and that will settle the dispute. If you do find it, shoot it in your rifle. You can do that in your reloading room also, just hold the muzzle tight against a matt, or carpet, and shoot it.
You have the bullet. Is there a black smudge on the base of the bullet? If there is no black soot on the bullet, the primer did not fire.
The case had a magnum load of powder and a bullet was seated. If the primer fired, why wouldn't it ignite the powder? As you say, sometimes the powder is not ignited when the primer fires. Sure, we've heard of that, once in 10,000 or maybe 100,000 times, the powder won't go bang. In all of the reloaded ammunition I have shot since very shortly after WW2, I have never had that happen.
Anyway, tell us if the base of the bullet is clean, or has a black, sooty smudge on it.
Bruce
You have the bullet. Is there a black smudge on the base of the bullet? If there is no black soot on the bullet, the primer did not fire.
The case had a magnum load of powder and a bullet was seated. If the primer fired, why wouldn't it ignite the powder? As you say, sometimes the powder is not ignited when the primer fires. Sure, we've heard of that, once in 10,000 or maybe 100,000 times, the powder won't go bang. In all of the reloaded ammunition I have shot since very shortly after WW2, I have never had that happen.
Anyway, tell us if the base of the bullet is clean, or has a black, sooty smudge on it.
Bruce
Hahahaha ( from the classless one ) !!
- Location
- Calgary, AB
I really like using the Hornady Cam-Lock Bullet Puller, I got a couple of collets for it,
It makes it easy and no waste of powder, the collet leaves minimal markings too.
That's what I use, and very impressed.
I've found that quite hard my rimmed cartridges, having ruined some 303 and 44 brass. After reading flanges link I think I'll stop doing it altogether.Nudder tip fur yewse awll.
The Lee shell holders for the hand held priming system works
for these hammering devices too.
Jest sewse's yeah know............
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Other encounters with primer detonation
While I continue to search for the .22 Hornet case that was fired out of my inertial bullet puller (Quinetics, RCBS branded, mid-80's vintage), here's a little reading for you skeptics based on just a cursory search on Google for such incidents. I'm sure you'll find more if you do your own searches; I'll try to find the account that I came across that happened last week.
http://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/inertia-bullet-puller-mishap.3847327/
http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-794751.html
Just because you can't imagine how it could happen or it doesn't make sense that the powder didn't ignite, or there would be scorch marks on the bullet base (there aren't and I wouldn't expect any if there was 10 grains of powder that didn't ignite between the base of the bullet and the flame of the primer), or it's not physically possible, or whatever....
My experience is not unique. I, like at least one of the other people in the above links, have been reloading for many, many years and wouldn't have thought it possible unless I experienced it. The only explanation that seems feasible to me is that if the puller is struck hard enough, there is sufficient mass in the primer case itself to crush the primer compound against the anvil. Hard to imagine unless you experience it; I wouldn't have believed it myself.
Just to reiterate: the case exploded out of the back of the puller, hit the ceiling at very high speed and deflected to parts unknown, my face was blasted with (unburned) powder, there was not a trace of powder remaining in the puller, the bullet did remain. Take it for what it's worth
A couple of other thoughts: contrary to one of the earlier accounts, I WAS using the original expandable collet that came with the puller. So I think the guy's conclusion about the root cause was incorrect. I am beginning to wonder if it was simply the shock of the hammer's impact on the cement floor that detonated the primer. I do know that the reason primers are packaged the way they are is because if they were all in proximity to each other and one was set off, the shock to the others can result in a very nasty explosion tantamount to a small bomb. Hmmm.
Another comment to add:
Here's a quote from one of the people that commented on the second of the two links above, and I think this is the crux of the matter. BTW, the incident described occurred in Dec 2015...
"BigBore, I had the exact same thing happen to me thirty years ago. The cartridge was a 222 Remington, loaded with a 50 grain bullet. I don't remember the primer. After several whacks without result, I gave it a mighty thump against a heavy vise jaw and... Bang, followed by a loud hiss as the powder did ignite, pushing the bullet out of the case and relieving pressure enough for the burning powder to thoroughly trash the bullet puller. I found the primer imbedded in the ceiling. I came to a conclusion:
I no longer liked inertia bullet pullers.
In this situation, primers that go of can leave the case damn fast. I wonder if the whole thing was caused by the primer not being fully seated in the case. The mighty whack may have seated it and allowed the anvil to set it off. It's the only conclusion I can think of.
It took years before I would use an inertia puller again. I believe they are best when pulling heavier bullets, but using them on a 17 Remington..... uh.. no thanks."
I have used this puller for many years, but only recently started loading a .17cal with tiny, light bullets. They don't have much momentum and so you have to whack really hard to dislodge them. Apart from the .22Hornet (which I sold after only a few years of use - 45, 50 gr projectiles) and now this .17Hornet, I have only ever loaded relatively heavy bullets (150 - 500gr) in various calibres. They don't take a lot of effort to dislodge because of their mass.
I now believe that any primer can be detonated in one of these pullers if the shock of a very high impact is sufficient. It's just that we generally don't have reason to strike it that hard; I got into the habit of striking the floor very hard to dislodge these light bullets. I also think that because the .22 round was so old, the bullet might have adhered a bit in the neck which prompted me to use more force than was safe.
It's interesting that for all of the accounts of peoples' similar experiences over the years recorded in forums, the vast majority of commenters say, "can't happen, impossible, etc". Yes it is possible, and does and will continue to happen. I don't think anyone knows all of the contributing factors, but in my case I'm fairly confident that using more force than is safe was the root cause.
"He who has ears to hear, let him hear."
While I continue to search for the .22 Hornet case that was fired out of my inertial bullet puller (Quinetics, RCBS branded, mid-80's vintage), here's a little reading for you skeptics based on just a cursory search on Google for such incidents. I'm sure you'll find more if you do your own searches; I'll try to find the account that I came across that happened last week.
http://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/inertia-bullet-puller-mishap.3847327/
http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-794751.html
Just because you can't imagine how it could happen or it doesn't make sense that the powder didn't ignite, or there would be scorch marks on the bullet base (there aren't and I wouldn't expect any if there was 10 grains of powder that didn't ignite between the base of the bullet and the flame of the primer), or it's not physically possible, or whatever....
My experience is not unique. I, like at least one of the other people in the above links, have been reloading for many, many years and wouldn't have thought it possible unless I experienced it. The only explanation that seems feasible to me is that if the puller is struck hard enough, there is sufficient mass in the primer case itself to crush the primer compound against the anvil. Hard to imagine unless you experience it; I wouldn't have believed it myself.
Just to reiterate: the case exploded out of the back of the puller, hit the ceiling at very high speed and deflected to parts unknown, my face was blasted with (unburned) powder, there was not a trace of powder remaining in the puller, the bullet did remain. Take it for what it's worth
A couple of other thoughts: contrary to one of the earlier accounts, I WAS using the original expandable collet that came with the puller. So I think the guy's conclusion about the root cause was incorrect. I am beginning to wonder if it was simply the shock of the hammer's impact on the cement floor that detonated the primer. I do know that the reason primers are packaged the way they are is because if they were all in proximity to each other and one was set off, the shock to the others can result in a very nasty explosion tantamount to a small bomb. Hmmm.
Another comment to add:
Here's a quote from one of the people that commented on the second of the two links above, and I think this is the crux of the matter. BTW, the incident described occurred in Dec 2015...
"BigBore, I had the exact same thing happen to me thirty years ago. The cartridge was a 222 Remington, loaded with a 50 grain bullet. I don't remember the primer. After several whacks without result, I gave it a mighty thump against a heavy vise jaw and... Bang, followed by a loud hiss as the powder did ignite, pushing the bullet out of the case and relieving pressure enough for the burning powder to thoroughly trash the bullet puller. I found the primer imbedded in the ceiling. I came to a conclusion:
I no longer liked inertia bullet pullers.
In this situation, primers that go of can leave the case damn fast. I wonder if the whole thing was caused by the primer not being fully seated in the case. The mighty whack may have seated it and allowed the anvil to set it off. It's the only conclusion I can think of.
It took years before I would use an inertia puller again. I believe they are best when pulling heavier bullets, but using them on a 17 Remington..... uh.. no thanks."
I have used this puller for many years, but only recently started loading a .17cal with tiny, light bullets. They don't have much momentum and so you have to whack really hard to dislodge them. Apart from the .22Hornet (which I sold after only a few years of use - 45, 50 gr projectiles) and now this .17Hornet, I have only ever loaded relatively heavy bullets (150 - 500gr) in various calibres. They don't take a lot of effort to dislodge because of their mass.
I now believe that any primer can be detonated in one of these pullers if the shock of a very high impact is sufficient. It's just that we generally don't have reason to strike it that hard; I got into the habit of striking the floor very hard to dislodge these light bullets. I also think that because the .22 round was so old, the bullet might have adhered a bit in the neck which prompted me to use more force than was safe.
It's interesting that for all of the accounts of peoples' similar experiences over the years recorded in forums, the vast majority of commenters say, "can't happen, impossible, etc". Yes it is possible, and does and will continue to happen. I don't think anyone knows all of the contributing factors, but in my case I'm fairly confident that using more force than is safe was the root cause.
"He who has ears to hear, let him hear."
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With those rounds I pulled the bullets, tossed the powder in the burning barrel, fired the primed case in the rifle. I tossed the rest of the CCI primers and loaded the case with a different brand of primers. I used the same pound of powder and box of bullets and didn't have any problems after.
Major-- I thought this was an interesting subject, because as I described in post #2, my first posting, I had recently had a near exact experience. I had a bullet nearly out and a light tap was all that would have been needed to get the bullet out. Instead, I gave it a hard smack. For every action, there is a reaction and in this case only a small amount of energy was required to finish getting the bullet out, so the rest of the energy of the hard whack went toward sending the cartridge case flying somewhere past me and cleaned all the powder out of the case and pounder, while flinging it all over me and the surroundings.
No, the primer didn't fire.
In your case you think your primer fired, but I don't think your primer fired.
So, we may as well each go our own way, you with your thoughts and me with mine.
Cheers, Bruce
No, the primer didn't fire.
In your case you think your primer fired, but I don't think your primer fired.
So, we may as well each go our own way, you with your thoughts and me with mine.
Cheers, Bruce
Just a thought, as I know a lot less about reloading then others in this thread, but I could always smell a primer if it was ignited i.e. shooting an empty case with a live primer. With no smell and no soot, ignition is highly improbable.
Thanks, Bruce. I respect your experience and opinion. If I locate that case, I will test the primer (if it is still in the pocket) and let you know what I found out (even if I have to eat humble pie).
Thanks, Bruce. I respect your experience and opinion. If I locate that case, I will test the primer (if it is still in the pocket) and let you know what I found out (even if I have to eat humble pie).
Great, I hope you find it. And regardless, there will be no humble pie to eat from here!
Sometimes our opinions are right and sometimes they are wrong, they're just opinions and don't really matter.
Bruce
