SxS defense shotgun

Coachgun67 said:
And...




So... do you two even have a restricted license or own a Glock? From looking into the OP's nothing indicates that he has a RPAL ...and of all handguns, only experienced shooters can really score with a Glock. You are well spoken but in order not to come off like a "Internet tough guy" get some facts together first. A handgun has its thing in carry and close up defense if you're not at home... A shotgun out to 50 yds does everything a handgun can,but better...above 50 yds a rifle does anything better than the two previous together. The OP asked for home defense...
As others stated, with Canadian law you're in trouble anyway if they find you must have kept it loaded ( or worse used a restricted ). The SxS will do against 5 intruders in a room...the first goes splat, and no one else wants to die next. This isn't about zombie apocalypse or internet games here. And if you have multiple armed attackers, determined to kill you and your family,even over cost of their own life...get another job. Biker leader,mobster or drug lord was a bad choice.:rolleyes:
As for loading in the dark under stress...yah, the pump and the card,eh? I got a stock sock on my SxS,you pull two out,feed two in without fumbling them two around,with family protection in mind, because even my ( not remotely interested in firearms ) wife can handle that.
And yes...the 590 is superior, even without bajonett , if you have to use it as a club, you won't bend it. And it has the safety where it should be contrary to the 870. Both are outdated anyway ( have both )...my UTS is shorter and holds twice the amount of rounds.
Still would use the SxS for HD...if i'm going into dreamworld, well...I can mow everything down with a M2. :jerkit:

CG
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Yes sir, have restricted and Glocks, as well as many other restricted firearms. Have also had real life experiences with em that's for conversations offline.

Lets face it, you're pretty much not allowed to defend yourself in Canada with a firearm period, so what's the point of this entire line of thought anyway ?

That's why I took it to Zombie defense... it's a joke, just like our firearm laws.
 
I
Coachgun67 said:
And...




So... do you two even have a restricted license or own a Glock? From looking into the OP's nothing indicates that he has a RPAL ...and of all handguns, only experienced shooters can really score with a Glock. You are well spoken but in order not to come off like a "Internet tough guy" get some facts together first. A handgun has its thing in carry and close up defense if you're not at home... A shotgun out to 50 yds does everything a handgun can,but better...above 50 yds a rifle does anything better than the two previous together. The OP asked for home defense...
As others stated, with Canadian law you're in trouble anyway if they find you must have kept it loaded ( or worse used a restricted ). The SxS will do against 5 intruders in a room...the first goes splat, and no one else wants to die next. This isn't about zombie apocalypse or internet games here. And if you have multiple armed attackers, determined to kill you and your family,even over cost of their own life...get another job. Biker leader,mobster or drug lord was a bad choice.:rolleyes:
As for loading in the dark under stress...yah, the pump and the card,eh? I got a stock sock on my SxS,you pull two out,feed two in without fumbling them two around,with family protection in mind, because even my ( not remotely interested in firearms ) wife can handle that.
And yes...the 590 is superior, even without bajonett , if you have to use it as a club, you won't bend it. And it has the safety where it should be contrary to the 870. Both are outdated anyway ( have both )...my UTS is shorter and holds twice the amount of rounds.
Still would use the SxS for HD...if i'm going into dreamworld, well...I can mow everything down with a M2. :jerkit:

CG
Click to expand...

No "Internet Tough Guy" here. Simply trying to point out the reality of the situation. to answer your first question about restricted firearms. I own (8) of them, with (5) of them being handguns. I fail to see how it's relevant to the discussion.

No, I don't own a Glock, however, I would recommend one for the reasons I stated. Glocks have a reputation for good ergonomics and even novice shooters can become proficient in their use with good practice. Sure, they're not for everyone, myself included. However, with many satisfied owners relating their experiences, how could it possibly be a poor recommendation?

I call BS on your assertion that a person is "in more trouble" with the law if you're charged with firearm offenses while using a restricted vs a non-restricted firearm. It simply isn't the case, especially under the circumstances you present in your argument. There's no distinction.

I don't share your beliefs that a SxS shotgun "will do" against 5 intruders. How can you possibly claim that? The odds are stacked against you to begin with, regardless of your choice of firearm. The only advantage a person has is that you have the home court advantage of knowing the layout of your home.

I'm curious to know why you think any shotgun, let alone a SxS, is a good choice for HD situations by someone with little to no interest or experience with firearms? Let me guess, just point and shoot, right? How could you possibly expect your wife to use ANY firearm in a competent manner under a poentially life threatening situation without being familiar with it's use?

To your point about your UTS. Are you referring to the UTS-15? Are you making an argument for its use in a HD situation? If so, given the platform's reputation for not being reliable, why would you want to out yourself in that position?
 
what about if you have to reload in a hurry after shooting at a bear and your still half a sleep ?? and there is another bear and the saftey comes on everytime you close that double barrel. try fumbleing with that . doubles look cool but if I - we the people of this great over taxed country were legally allowed to defend ourselves I'd take a quality pump anytime. JMO
 
I wasn't going to comment on Coachgun67's UTS assertion but since Mossberg_590A1 did I might as well.

Many seem to think just because something is new and cool looking it's better and the fact is a UTS is not a proven firearm with a track record of reliability like an 870 or 590 has.

Simple reliable platforms are the way to go just about every time. One could argue that's exactly what a SxS is but you have to take into consideration the "fumble factor" and the "continuing to operate it factor."

Coach guns are good for period era movies or cool zombie scenes and t's certainly good for getting two rounds off right now if you could have it sitting there loaded and then drop the thing for something else, but like cement head stated, if the first 2 shots don't do it you're in trouble.

For those who want to argue the short stroke factor on a pump ... EVERY firearm has it's operational shortcomings. ANYONE can short stroke. I've seem well train serious "operators" do it under fire. It happens. But it can be cleared quickly. Just like you can't run a pump forearm like a wimp, you can't clear it like a wimp either.

Look at the reloading factor of a coach gun vs a pump. The reloading of a SxS has a somewhat precise small angle of placing in the shell. A pump is much more forgiving in terms of the "space" to get a shell in there. Also, the reload advantage of the pump is you drop one in the ejection port and chamber it before loading the mag tube (at least that's the way you should be doing it).... this of course gives you a round "right now" if need be.

Ok, sure, you can say that about a SxS as well but you don't have to be anywhere near as precise dropping that shell into the ejection port of a pump as you do the chamber of a coach gun.

Most are not a youtube superstar operator. The more the design allows for the "fumble factor" the more reliable the platform is in terms of keeping it running.
 
I mean, what serious shotgun shooter doesn't practice quick tactical reloads at the range with a pump? It's fun to time yourself and try different reload methods and shell storage/holder access.
 
Of course all these HD threads fall apart and this one is no different but before it gets locked here are some assumptions that need to be cleared up before gaming it out:

Where do you live ? City / Suburban / rural / really remote changes the game, response time (of you and any help), weapons used
Is this some jerk breaking in who needs scaring off or some gang of armed individuals intent on GBH/Death ( perhaps thinking you ARE are drug lord / HA or whatever )
Has society broken down temporarily ( extended loss of power ) or permanently ( post apocalyptic stuff )
Are you on your own/trained/fit/competent with weapons or not

So set some parameters and then game it out. In Canada, with a functioning society and accountability to a Court of Law post event, any use of force is going to be under the microscope and will likely result in at least temporary loss of firearms, big legal bills, immense stress and a real possibility of conviction so using a Glock and a tricked out tacticool long gun to HD against some punk kid breaking into your truck ain't, IMO, super smart whereas in a situation where society has collapsed and there is no functioning cops / courts etc stepping out with a SxS to fend off a gang of armed intruders intent on stealing your store of canned goods and water may be under-gunning yourself.

Enjoy the what ifs :)
 
"Glocks have a reputation for good ergonomics"

Sorry, but it's painfully obvious you don't own a Glock ;)


Has anyone pondered the probability of even getting more than 1 or 2 aimed shots off when you and everyone else has just been blinded, deafened, disoriented, by a 12 gauge flash-bang going off in an enclosed (optionally darkened) space?

SxS is also Joe Biden approved - lol
 
Tomochan said:
Of course all these HD threads fall apart and this one is no different but before it gets locked here are some assumptions that need to be cleared up before gaming it out:

Where do you live ? City / Suburban / rural / really remote changes the game, response time (of you and any help), weapons used
Is this some jerk breaking in who needs scaring off or some gang of armed individuals intent on GBH/Death ( perhaps thinking you ARE are drug lord / HA or whatever )
Has society broken down temporarily ( extended loss of power ) or permanently ( post apocalyptic stuff )
Are you on your own/trained/fit/competent with weapons or not

So set some parameters and then game it out. In Canada, with a functioning society and accountability to a Court of Law post event, any use of force is going to be under the microscope and will likely result in at least temporary loss of firearms, big legal bills, immense stress and a real possibility of conviction so using a Glock and a tricked out tacticool long gun to HD against some punk kid breaking into your truck ain't, IMO, super smart whereas in a situation where society has collapsed and there is no functioning cops / courts etc stepping out with a SxS to fend off a gang of armed intruders intent on stealing your store of canned goods and water may be under-gunning yourself.

Enjoy the what ifs :)
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I don't see how you could make the claim this thread is falling apart and will be locked. Maybe you missed the OP's initial post where in the last line of his post, he asked for opinions to counter his thoughts of his proposed SxS build. So far, he's got what he asked for and the debate has been civil.

As far as your choice of firearm, you should plan for the worst and hope for the best. If you seriously believe a SxS shotgun is the ideal tool for the job, then have at it. You're the one who will have to live (or not) with the consequences of your choice.
 
Tomochan said:
.........In Canada, with a functioning society and accountability to a Court of Law post event, any use of force is going to be under the microscope and will likely result in at least temporary loss of firearms, big legal bills, immense stress and a real possibility of conviction so using a Glock and a tricked out tacticool long gun to HD against some punk kid breaking into your truck ain't, IMO, super smart whereas in a situation where society has collapsed and there is no functioning cops / courts etc stepping out with a SxS to fend off a gang of armed intruders intent on stealing your store of canned goods and water may be under-gunning yourself..........)
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... and that's one of the long list of reasons I've come to the conclusion Canada has become a big stinking pile of dog turd.
 
Mark-II said:
"Glocks have a reputation for good ergonomics"

Sorry, but it's painfully obvious you don't own a Glock ;)


Has anyone pondered the probability of even getting more than 1 or 2 aimed shots off when you and everyone else has just been blinded, deafened, disoriented, by a 12 gauge flash-bang going off in an enclosed (optionally darkened) space?

SxS is also Joe Biden approved - lol
Click to expand...

Yes, it's painfully obvious that I don't own a Glock because I'd said as much. It's obviously not an option for you either. However, you can't argue with the numbers. They apparently work for lots people - just not us. Kind of like the point of this thread, right? SxS's as a tool for HD use simply isn't for everyone.
 
I always feel like a little like Gecko45 when I comment on defensive firearms. Admittedly I have no practical, defensive or other relevant training, but I have read many of the threads here and other forums, taking what I feel is most important from each, as well as a variety of videos and other resources from the online tactical experts. LMAO, it sounds ridiculous even as I type it.

A shotgun can be very effective for defense scenarios, but most are lacking a few features that I feel are absolute necessities for a home defense firearm in Canada. I always envision middle of the night intruder(s) as the worst scenario to be prepared for. I would be fast asleep, with little or no prep time, and still groggy. Not alerting the intruders to my presence (or my awareness of their presence) is a major consideration. The draw-backs to a shotgun for me are the noise, time and dexterity required to load one (barring mag fed shotguns). I live in a rural community, with no artificial light or exterior noise after 10pm or so. Any sound in the house would carry very well, even the clickity click of sliding shells into the tube. Secondly are only 2 rounds with double barrel, and the need to carry loose shells either in a pouch, pocket or on a card. Although I do agree that 2 rounds would cover most situations, IMO having more than 2 (without reloading) is a better preparedness plan. A less important but still very relevant concern is the increase in volume of the shots from a shotgun in a confined space. I do keep electronic ear muffs with my defensive firearm, but time and urgency may not allow for getting them on in time, nor will they protect the hearing of others in my house.

IMO a self defense firearm in Canada MUST be, or have;

-non-restricted
-mag fed
-a mounted reliable light or two (one is none, two is one)
-red dot with back-up sights
...and a mounted laser is way under-rated for defensive firearms

I chose my Thureon Defense 9mm Carbine for home defense, with Streamlight TLR-3 on the left barrel rail, and TLR-4 (with laser) on the right barrel rail. The TLR-4 is set to laser only, but a quick flip changes it to a back-up light if the TLR-3 fails. All three components also take the same CR2 battery, and I have spares in the stock or pistol grip. I keep the bolt locked open, and can insert the mag with almost no sound. I can make it ready in complete darkness, and not drop the bolt until ready to take aim (to avoid alerting intruders of my presence). I do not need to turn on room lights, which my eyes would need more adjustment to than the already alert intruder’s vision. It has a Vortex Strikefire and co-witness iron sights (and the laser). If the situation ever arise that I need it, I want to know I have as many bases covered with redundant systems as possible.

For home defense a reliable 9mm pistol (with tac-light) would be my preferred option, but under current Canadian regulations, attitudes, the likelihood of charges and attempted prosecution, I will avoid Restricted firearms when possible. Restricted firearms not only add another level of storage to get through, but also bring further legal complications if the attackers are outside your home, and in the aftermath, could lead to renewal resistance if you didn’t have self defense as the reason for issue, and depending on your storage set-up. Don’t get me wrong, I am not agreeing with, nor saying I wouldn’t use a pistol, just that IMO opinion being prepared for self defense also means preparing defense against the impending legal action which would likely follow.

As I opened with, I do feel a little like Gecko or a mall ninja of sorts discussing this, but none the less, there are my un-educated thoughts on home defense firearms in Canada.
 
I get everything you're saying here JACKSMYDOG ...... but we're not allowed to choose ANY firearm for real home defense in this country.

Go ahead, use ANY gun to defend your family, yourself and your property and watch what happens to your life.

You're farrrrrrrrrr .... better off to have a plan, a of couple shovels, several bags of lime and what you'd refer to as a real 3-SSS friend and deal with it that way.

Sorry, but that's the reality of the insanely over-reaching, abusive, out of control laws in this country.

Go ahead, tell me iI'm wrong .....
 
For me at least, even though I live on the edge of a bad neighborhood, and have some downright shady people living in my building, I don't see defending my home as being very likely outside of a disaster or massive civil unrest scenario.
 
As someone who has survived a 2 am home invasion/robbery (while I lived in Kenya) I can tell you that even if I had a firearm beside the bed it would have been useless to me... I would have had to have the gun loaded and ready in the bed with me for me to have any hope of turning the tables on my attackers. Like most people here I have been known to fantasize about a scenario where having guns would help but fantasy is really all it is. A well trained dog of a working breed and of sufficient size is a better defense than any gun in your safe and if the situation is really that bad perhaps the dog will buy you enough time to access a firearm. I once had a "gun defense" conversation with a family member who is career infantry and has served in some of the worst places our military has been sent to, who suggested a good heavy fire extinguisher because a fire is far more likely statistically than a home invasion and could be pressed into service for self defense if the need arose. A fire extinguisher will actually do some nasty things to the human body at close range and would at the least disorient the attacker long enough to use it as a blunt force weapon. I wont be getting rid of my guns but I also wont be tricking myself into thinking they will help much at all in most of the situations people are worried about. If there is a complete breakdown of law and order then chances are your gun will be loaded and ready before a threat arrises but as it stands now in order to comply with the laws we have your gun better not be your first line of defense. Secure doors, good locks, a big dog or 2 trained for the purpose, and a house laid out to slow down intruders/make them cause a lot of noise, will go much farther toward your safety than a quick access safe by the bed. A fire extinguisher wouldn't hurt either. In regard to the OP question about a double barrel for home defense... I don't much go for the idea of a dedicated HD firearm here in Canada, Buy what you like to shoot because chances are it will never be fired in anger and learn to handle and run the firearms you have. The survival knife/gun/whatever you are are looking for will be the one you have with you when you need it not the fancy one you tricked out dreaming about a zombie apocalypse
 
Just to indulge the fantasy for a moment lets consider the people who say that 2 shots from a double isn't enough. Lets take a look at the statistics from south of the border about self defense with guns and shots fired a large portion are ended without a shot being fired with a great majority of the remaining cases ending with 1-2 shots fired and a very very small number requiring more shots fired. Given that most self defense shootings occur within 7 yards and often much closer inside homes you wont be getting into protracted gunfights. Even with multiple attackers chances are good that unless they are very determined or professionally trained they will lose the will to fight when the first one gets shot not to mention the disorienting and deafening effect of any firearm being discharged indoors so capacity really is secondary to other concerns like quickness into action in real world scenarios. If your real world scenarios don't fit this mold then you are in a situation not many of us can relate to and should be seeking professional training/protection if moving isn't an option. For the most part unless there are some extenuating circumstances (like you being involved in crime or law enforcement) criminals will be looking for soft targets make yourself a hard target with the things I mentioned in my earlier post and guns will be you last line of defense not your first. I will never forget the first lesson in self defense I learned from a martial arts instructor he said the best defense is a good pair of running shoes there is no shame in avoiding a fight and he also said no matter how hard you train a bigger guy has a natural advantage live to fight another day. Now if someone backs you into a corner by all means do what you have to in order to protect yourself and your loved ones but think ahead and do what you can to avoid having to make those life changing and life ending decisions. ok I'm done carry on with the zombie preparedness
 
Hey, who's up for a fire extinguisher build thread? Would it be good for bear defense as well? Oh, and is a fire extinguisher crhome lined?

Thanks!
 
"STOP, I'm in fear for my life!"

"Arrete, j'ai peur pour ma vie!".

"Pare, tengo miedo para mi vida!".

Bang, bang.

SxS works for me if nothing else is available.

It makes for sense than gyaka zuki at 3 AM.
 
Mossberg_590A1 said:
Hey, who's up for a fire extinguisher build thread? Would it be good for bear defense as well? Oh, and is a fire extinguisher crhome lined?

Thanks!
Click to expand...

Ideally a home defense fire extinguisher should have a quad rail with tac light, laser sight, and smoke detector, as well as a vertical foregrip for easier retention.
 
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