308 barrel life and signs, for FTR

SND said:
I definitely still have many things to work on and improve, I very well may be the problem of this random elevation thing, but was curious about what others noticed or expect out of their barrels for longevity.
I only had to move up .020" to touch the lands from new, though I had freebored it real long to start with to be between 175 and 220gr scenars, which was a compromise a bit. Should have made it about .080" shorter and not worried about 220's until the 300wm.

Oddly so far a lot of the things I try that should improve things, make them worse half the time(part of the fun I guess...). One of my best relays this year was when I dropped my open box of ammo while getting set up and they all got mixed from how I had sorted them, wiped the grass and dirt off them... then grouped 8 out of 10 in about 2" at 600m(very calm weather), but had 2 that were low 5's, dead center on wind but low. Probably bad position and/or light changes too, still trying to figure out the light thing.
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We all love to find that bughole shooting load and believe that will help us stitch that V bull. Reality, bug hole accuracy in an FTR rifle is fleeting and really, what we need is consistency far more then microscopic accuracy.

If you have a 17rds load and set up that will ALWAYS drive them into 1/2 min, you have all the mechanical accuracy you can use pratically at 900m.

Consider a setup and load that is predictable and reliable... boring is what I want these days. If what you set up needs a tweak every other range visit, get rid of it. If the pressures or node is too peaky, drop down the charge and slow things down.

I have been there and done pretty much all of it. Great for a time, then a big disaster as stuff goes out of tune. This year has been about finding "boring" and my scores have improved... Not saying I didn't have problems in setup and ammo. Just that I had a far better understanding of the "why" and it made resolving things faster and easier.

Just got back from Rattlesnake where we shot out to 1000yds. A 1/10 MOA rifle wasn't going to save me from reading the winds wrong and missing by feet.

BUT because I trust my new load, I was able to make corrections that would eventually put me in the center. I find I am less worried about V bulls and more about 5's... and that is how you win stuff.

When you can center your group quickly, the V bulls will come.

Since this is the offseason, consider reviewing the basics from your setup, to shooting position, to your load. 100 or 200yds helps to reduce the affects of the wind and let you focus on the "act of shooting".

You might find inconsistencies you didn't know existed and that can only help improve your LR results.

Jerry

PS... great time to make sure the optics, stock, rings, base, bipod, rests and bags aren't the problem
 
I have to fire form some new brass soon to have it all ready to prep over winter, so I plan to take the time to check the scope as well, maybe something is randomly moving a tiny bit in there. I've wondered a few times this year if something was off with it. Sometimes my elevations are off about 1 to 1.5moa, but again figured morning vs afternoon sun angle, and some of the strong tail winds we got this year. Never really noticed that much change the other years though. I was planning to put my 10-50x60LRMOA on this rifle for next year anyhow.
Definitely trying to bring it down to something a bit more simple and reliable. Gonna make my own seating die for it when I get a bit of time using my chamber reamer, the one I'm using now has given me some issues.
Also changing primers, had doubts about ignition a few times, so going to Federal 205M's next year.
 
Most that use SR primer Lapua brass will go with CCI 450's or even a Rem 7 1/2. You need a strong spark and any variation in ignition is going to drive you bonkers. Why I still use LR primer brass.

Variations in elevation due to conditions is common. Was just back from Rattlesnake and between the light and winds, I had a 1 1/4 min difference from 1 day to the other. And during a particularly swirly time, I was moving 3/4 min to account for wind related vertical changes.

Good luck with your testing.

Jerry
 
Mystic Precision said:
We all love to find that bughole shooting load and believe that will help us stitch that V bull. Reality, bug hole accuracy in an FTR rifle is fleeting and really, what we need is consistency far more then microscopic accuracy.

If you have a 17rds load and set up that will ALWAYS drive them into 1/2 min, you have all the mechanical accuracy you can use pratically at 900m.

Consider a setup and load that is predictable and reliable... boring is what I want these days. If what you set up needs a tweak every other range visit, get rid of it. If the pressures or node is too peaky, drop down the charge and slow things down.

I have been there and done pretty much all of it. Great for a time, then a big disaster as stuff goes out of tune. This year has been about finding "boring" and my scores have improved... Not saying I didn't have problems in setup and ammo. Just that I had a far better understanding of the "why" and it made resolving things faster and easier.

Just got back from Rattlesnake where we shot out to 1000yds. A 1/10 MOA rifle wasn't going to save me from reading the winds wrong and missing by feet.

BUT because I trust my new load, I was able to make corrections that would eventually put me in the center. I find I am less worried about V bulls and more about 5's... and that is how you win stuff.

When you can center your group quickly, the V bulls will come.
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Hi Mystic i kindly but strongly disagree with your 1/2moa min requirement. And here is why


The V bull itself is 1/2moa and from their we have to consider the fact the target is round and not square.

If you look at the diagram below you will note only the centre of the circle both horizontally and vertical is true 1/2 moa once we move away from the centre our target becomes smaller. As noted in the diagram the circle is dissected into 1/4moa above and below the datum point. At the peak of the circle is our 1/4 moa when we move to the right highlighted in red we now see the target is less then a 1/4moa and we are no longer shooting V bulls but 5's.

This creates a problem for a rifle system that can only shot 1/2moa. The target has now created a situation where our rifle shoots larger then 1/2 moa if we make a less then exact wind call. combining our wind calls with our 1/2 moa rifle and we are not only shooting fewer V we are also dropping points to vertical
211.jpg


Now lets look into the 5 ring unfortunately the circle is not to scale as the 1/2 moa square would not touch the edges of the 1moa 5 ring but it is close and good for illustration purposes.

We know the centre of the bull to the 5 ring is 1/2 moa with a rifle that shoot 1/2moa we now have to concern ourselves with the same issue as in the first image if our wind call is not exact not only could we not shoot a V bull but there is a real possibility we could drop points on the corners 1-5-7-11 o'clock as the 5 ring also shrinks from a true 1moa from anything but true vertical and horizontal.

circles_squ_prob.gif


This bring up our third item with a 1/2moa rifle we will need to be more diligent centering our group on the target to ensure our high shot and our low shot are at the top and bottom of the V bull. We only get two sighters so our first shot has to be a V or perfectly aligned with the 6 to 12 noon position in order to be able to start centering our group. If the first shot is not marked as expected then we have to shoot a 2nd shot to bring it into the V bull but we still do not know if the 2nd shot (in the V bull) is high low or dead centre of our group. So now we are about to start our record shots and we are not sure where the 1 for score is going to land in relation to the 2nd shot and whether we have to adjust up or down to centre our group, which results in more shots to confirm our groups centre and most likely more points lost.


This means we now have to plot vertical.. Really i hate plotting vertical because I now have to enter information and try and predict where my next shot will fall in a group of shots in order to ensure i stay withing the V bull (or 5 ring) as opposed to reading the conditions which beat us more often then not.


My solution is to work on my load so that my rifle shoots .2 - .3moa. If you can get your rifle to shoot .3moa groups you have eliminated almost all of the issues about target size and wind calls above, we are confident the rifle can stay within the V bull and will with certainty stay within the 5 ring. This will gain points and remove the need to plot vertical. by achieving a .3moa rifle the target has become bigger and there will be fewer points lost on the corners 1-5-7-11 o'clock

A good Friend of mine says if we eliminate all the mechanical variables then we can focus solely on the proper wind call

To answer the ops original question i switch out barrels at 3,000 rds or slightly before if i am close after seasons end as I don't like to start a new season with barrels that are long in the tooth and may let go during a registered match. i do still use them but they are for position practice and to try and keep me sharp during the off season or fun events.

All the Best
Trevor
 
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I think Jerry and Trevor both make good points but each from a slightly different perspective that depends upon the amount of wind.

In relatively calm conditions I would agree with Trevor. (under 10-12 mph)

In windy conditions I'm inclined to side with Jerry. (over 12 to 40+ mph)

Not that Trevor's .3 moa rifle would hurt you in a switchy 30 mph wind, its just that when wind blows that hard the difference between a 0.3 moa and a 1 moa rifle wont mean much, which I think is Jerry's point.

On the other hand, a 1 moa rifle will have you chasing ghosts in a 5 mph wind and will challenge your confidence.

Same old story, you can't learn from a rifle you can't trust.
 
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Trevor60, your points are excellent and the standard thinking for how we tune our guns. Anyone trying to podium at the larger matches will strive for the best mechanical accuracy they can but consider these thoughts:

A 1/2 MOA rifle has the 2 widest shots at 1/2MOA... 94% of the grouping is smaller (17rds relay). Obviously, we are not talking about a rifle and shooter that puts ALL shots with a great big empty space in the middle and all the shots at the periphery. If 2 out of 17rds is furthest apart at 1/2MOA but 16rds are closer, there is precious little gained wrt to scores if the rifle grouped 1/10 MOA or 2/10 smaller.

The "worst" shot may not be a V but it is well inside the 5 ring.

And anyone that is putting in the effort to tune their loads for peak accuracy is also going to reduce their vertical dispersion to the lowest possible... and that includes HOW the shots are fired. I have found many more loads and set ups that would shoot sub1/2moa horizontally with 1/4 moa vertical, then loads that would stay in tune in the 3's over the life of a barrel. Again, not saying it doesn't happen, I just don't see it on a regular basis.

I have new barrels that shoot sub 1/4 min at 250yds for 15 to 20rds but that tends to moderate after a few hundred rds... most settle into the 1/3 min as you have described BUT as wear goes, this will expand. Vertical however, tends not to change as dramatically..... not sure why.

Ultimately, the shooter needs to have the CAPACITY to shoot sub 1/2 moa to realise a sub 1/2 MOA rifle..... I wonder how many can do this for 17 to 22rds in 15mins several times a day? Why I suggest training in the off season to maintain the basics.... and to locate things to improve.

When a shooter has that capacity, they will also know the limits of their rifle and load... and see improvements in the changes they make.

As I said earlier, I spent alot of effort trying to perfect my gear and to try any option that might offer a mechanical advantage. What I didn't spend as much time doing was shooting on a range with wind flags to learn all that I could about the wind (no LR ranges in my area - I now travel much more).

if you have a set up that can drill V's all day long BUT you don't read winds to sub MOA, you simply are not going to score well. What I also found was some set ups aren't reliable and having a load go out of tune during a match is not something I would suggest for a good time.

So, better to have 1/2MOA rifle AND spend the shooting time learning to read the winds vs testing and tuning and squeezing the last tenth from your rifle and not. 75-3V beats a 74-14V anyday anywhere.

We all want to shoot V's BUT 5's are what win matches and a true 1/2MOA or better rifle is plenty accurate to center on an MOA 5 ring. FTR has improved leaps and bounds wrt to scores and performance but I have yet to see an entire match shot without dropping some points and those points are lost to missing the wind call or making a bad shot or maybe something else.

Work towards the best mechanical accuracy you can. If you have the skill and gear to hold 1/3 min relay after relay, you will be part of the elite shooters on this planet. But I want to make sure whatever I have is dead reliable under all the conditions I will compete in. AND if that reliability means a bit less mechanical accuracy, I'll take it.

Because dead reliable gear is what let's me center my groups and score 5's... and if I can put them in the middle, the V's will come just because 94% of my group can cover that V bull circle....IF, I get the wind call right.

YMMV

Jerry
 
BadAsMo said:
I think Jerry and Trevor both make good points but each from a slightly different perspective that depends upon the amount of wind.

In relatively calm conditions I would agree with Trevor. (under 10-12 mph)

In windy conditions I'm inclined to side with Jerry. (over 12 to 40+ mph)

Not that Trevor's .3 moa rifle would hurt you in a switchy 30 mph wind, its just that when wind blows that hard the difference between a 0.3 moa and a 1 moa rifle wont mean much, which I think is Jerry's point.

On the other hand, a 1 moa rifle will have you chasing ghosts in a 5 mph wind and will challenge your confidence.

Same old story, you can't learn from a rifle you can't trust.
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You make some excellent points too. Don't kid yourself, when you get a chance to string fire and the the flags are limp, you pull out the 1/3 min zapper and blow out the center as best you can.

But when the flags are moving, better to have something that will score well then a zapper combo that gets bounced around out of the 10 ring.

Sometimes, this requires two completely separate set ups.....

Jerry

PS I suggested 1/2 MOA or better for an FTR rifle... MOA is for sling shooters :)
 
BadAsMo said:
I think Jerry and Trevor both make good points but each from a slightly different perspective that depends upon the amount of wind.

In relatively calm conditions I would agree with Trevor. (under 10-12 mph)

In windy conditions I'm inclined to side with Jerry. (over 12 to 40+ mph)

Not that Trevor's .3 moa rifle would hurt you in a switchy 30 mph wind, its just that when wind blows that hard the difference between a 0.3 moa and a 1 moa rifle wont mean much, which I think is Jerry's point.

On the other hand, a 1 moa rifle will have you chasing ghosts in a 5 mph wind and will challenge your confidence.

Same old story, you can't learn from a rifle you can't trust.
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In your examples I believe you have them backwards. the calmer the condition the more likely a 1/2moa rifle would should a clean score; with little environmental conditions the shooter would need fewer shots to centre their groups and could identify trends producing clean scores.
For winds that are high or switching a tighter shooting rifle is all the more important. Where changes to wind calls are in MOAs' and not shading a side of the the V bull you want to preserve as many points as possible. Dropping points because your wind call put you on the 3 o'clock side of the V but your vertical put you in the 4 ring makes you changes your wind call and also forces you to change/re-evaluate your groups centre. Sounds frustrating, but it can be over come again I reference a a .3moa rifle you won't drop the point as the shot will fall within the 5 ring and you can again direct your focus on the wind.

An accurate rifle can never hurt your performance. the debate we are having is what would be considered an accurate rifle for F class shooting, while a 1/2 moa rifle is good i think it has been demonstrated that a tighter shooting rifle will produce less issues and provide higher. A .3moa rifle is achievable in 308win.

All the best
Trevor

P.S

Here is the pending F/tr record perfect score 200 with 14x was this a .3moa rifle or a 1/2 moa rifle
derek2001401.jpg
 
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I suppose this discussion got me to thinking about the ORA match this year where we had winds up to 43 miles per hour.
My rifle wasn't shooting particularly well that weekend.

When I was cranking on more than 10 minutes for wind at 900 meters, I don't think the accuracy of my rifle made much of a difference.

I walked off the 900 meter line with a 38 out of 50 and joked with the guys that I've never worked so hard to shoot a 38 in my life.
As it turned out, to my surprise, I won that event and the long range agg with a rifle that was probably only around 3/4 moa.
 
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Unfortunately, my ammo went out of tune at the Nationals in Aug... Yes, I have found where the problem was and it will NEVER HAPPEN AGAIN.

Going from a flat shooting accurate load to an expanding vertical that made the rifle a fat 1MOA in the vertical plane with under 1/2 min horizontal... at 900m, I was going to get 4's regardless. 700 and 800, it would just stay in the 5 ring by virtue of being a bigger relative target.

At the shorter ranges, the tracking was such that I beat a couple of top US shooters.... I just kept up with the burply air. The plot was horrid but a 5 is a 5....

At 900m, I looked back at the 20+ 4's that had good wind calls... just high and low.... could'a, would'a, should'a.

When the loads showed problems on sight in day, you have 2 choices.. quit or do the best with what you have. This unfortunate experience showed me that consistency trumped pure mechanical accuracy. yes, my load was shooting like crap BUT it shot consistently crappy.

That is something you can center....First day, top 18... second day 30something and this with bleeding a bunch of points at each 900m relay

Last relay at 900m, I got totally and completely lost. No clue what to watch and may as well have been tossing rocks. A perfect shooting rifle wouldn't have helped and I totally tanked on a scale far beyond the issues of the load.

The most accurate unstable load... will bite you eventually. Consistent, reliable and predictable loads, rifles and set up is what will win F class matches. If you can find and maintain peak accuracy with these traits, that is the holy grail of this sport BUT if itty bitty groups lead you down a path that is flaky, beware..... It is no fun when you know you are going to drop points.

Jerry
 
I've been giving making a barrel tuner some thought for the next one, or maybe its one more thing to fuss around with.
 
308BAR said:
Would this be a case for a barrel tuner with a tuned load. Shooting at a different range with different conditions you could barrel tune th load to work.
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No... it had to do with using a compressed powder load and having the bullets push forward. Never seen this before cause I never store my ammo. The stuff going to the Nationals was a month in transit and it "grew".

Talk about a surprise....and a big dissappointment

If the load I use is that flaky that I need a Tuner, I will change the load... that is the point I was trying to make after a very long journey looking for unicorns.

Jerry
 
I've had some bullets push back out before with too little neck tension and a compressed load, noticed it while reloading thankfully, after they sat all night they squeeze down to where they needed to be in the morning and stayed.

One thing I noticed, a few shooters seem to Jam their bullets. I always jumped around .020" for just about everything, so next year I'll test that a bit. I just don't like the idea of jamming them in case a round has to be taken out during the match, no fun when they open up and spill inside the action.
 
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