Neck turning for a factory rifle?

migrant hunter

migrant hunter

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I am returning to the .300 win mag for a Elk rifle, but I'm getting excited about wringing accuracy out of it to extreme ranges (1000yds?)just for the satisfaction(I have no intention of hunting at 400-450yds+).
I want to go beyond the kind of handloading I've done for years for"hunting accuracy". I usually partial size my brass with a FL sizer, rarely trim case mouths, and have never done a ladder test on anything.
Before I start my brass prep, is it worth neck turning for a Savage 111 .300WM? It's brand new, not even scoped yet, standard from the factory. Will there be any advantage to neck turning, apart from checking the uniformity of the neck thickness?
I don't know how much time I will have to invest in this project, but I'm keen on it right now as this is "case prep" weather right now.
 
Neck turning is normally done to allow a close fit between the brass neck OD and the chamber neck ID. To do this you need a custom reamed chamber which will be smaller in the neck so the smaller OD brass will still fit close to the neck.

But yes you can turn brass and use it in a factory chamber. It is a double edged sword though. You will get more uniform brass thickness, but the brass will end up fitting even looser that standard factory tolerances. I think you are most likely to lose more than you will gain.

Another option to a FL die is to use a Forster Bushing Bump Neck Sizing die. This die allows you to bump the shoulder back a thou or two for maximum brass life, and at the same time only partially size the neck -- say 1/2 or 2/3 sized. The remaining unsized part of the neck fits quite tight in the chamber neck, with about 0.001" clearance. This is kind of like having neck turned brass, as it makes sure your brass is concentric with the chamber.

So, my suggestion is that it may be better to spend your money on the Forster die rather than on the neck turning equipment. You probably still will eventually need a FL die, if the neck sizing and shoulder bump are not enough to keep your case fitting. I however have done 5 reloads doing this type of die, and still no hint of needing the FL die yet...
 
A neck turning setup is pricey. There's lots of other things you could start with first - like a couple hundred pieces of Lapua brass.....oh wait, they don't make it. Crap. Nosler maybe??

A wet tumbler, primer pocket cleaner, flash hole cleaner, length trimming tool, base to ogive measuring tool, a hornady headspace gauge, a powder trickler, a chronograph, a Forster or Redding seater die, and a FL bushing die (that one is just my opinion), would be way more worthwhile.

WELCOME TO THE WITCHCRAFT!!!

GGG
 
Migrant, I neck turn for hunting ammunition and am not a bench rest shooter.

Many here believe that it's not worth it for Savage run of mill bolt actions (and I can't dispute because I don't own or shoot benchrest rifles to compare) but in my case I did it for different reasons, and the by-product IS improved accuracy based on range results for myself and my son.

I got into it because the reloading process was having varied results in terms of neck tension and bullet seating force giving erratic results. I started with massively inconsistent federal brass from blue box and federal fusion off the shelf stuff that we saved. Working with that brass, and all it's inconsistencies provided lots of learning and a few failures. But I believe I am a better reloader for it.

That being said, if I never started with federal brass I might not have gotten into neck turning. There is better quality and more expensive brass that offers more consistencies regarding neck thickness and long term longevity, in which case neck turning may not provide benefit if you go down that road. I now have turned Lapua for my rifle and PRVI for my son to keep headstamps separate between rifles. The whole reloading process from start to finish is VERY repeatable through every step and it's showing up at the range and in the field.

I am a firm believer it has merit but YMMV.

FWIW
Regards
RonR
 
For the 300 Win , stock rifle/chamber, I skim (take off minimum brass) the necks so they are uniform thickness then neck size with a Lee Collet Neck Sizer.

This is to lower extreme spread, which does improve accuracy at long distance.

It also depends on how much the necks vary in thickness, 1/2 a thou for a hunting application is not to bad. But I do check them and if ES is an issue they get 'turned' as part of the process.

If you don't have dies yet look at these http://leeprecision.com/300-win-mag-ult-die-set.html if you do, you can get the collet die singularly. Don't let the price fool you, they work very well.
 
Neck turning is an important part of making the best ammo you can but it is only 1 part.

If you want get in precision loading, you will need to do your best in all the areas of importance. Yes, some will need new or better tools but some steps may just need more TLC.

So, decide how far down this rabbit hole you want to go as it will include proper brass prep, good scales, seaters, loading tuning, correct bedding, optics, rests, and bullets.

Neck turning on its own will not do make accurate ammo. But if truly interested in going down this rabbit hole, the payoff could be a satisfying clang on your gong at 1000yds on demand!!!!!!

Remember that a TRUE sub MOA rifle at 1000yds, makes a dinner plate a viable target 100% of the time you can correctly dope the wind.. I feel that is worth all the efforts.

Jerry
 
I know there's no end to this, I've already made a dent in my bank account.
I had a .300wm before so I still have a lee case length gauge. I have a chrony, ordered a lee collet today.
I think I have a flash hole deburr tool somewhere. I have lots of guns to use if I just want to shoot, but with this one I intend to put more love into my handloads. I'd like to shoot something like a 200 gr ELD X to 1000yds, so taking an elk be at 400 would be realistic option with the same set up.
 
Before I started to neck turn I would get a runout gauge and a simple neck thickness gauge like the Sinclair unit.
There is no sense turning necks unless you have good quality brass. Example I have Remington brass that varies between .001 to .009 neck thickness variations.
The first thing I do is sort my cases with my neck thickness gauge looking for uniformity. And in a factory chamber many times just sorting for neck thickness may be good enough without neck turning.
 
migrant hunter said:
I know there's no end to this, I've already made a dent in my bank account.
I had a .300wm before so I still have a lee case length gauge. I have a chrony, ordered a lee collet today.
I think I have a flash hole deburr tool somewhere. I have lots of guns to use if I just want to shoot, but with this one I intend to put more love into my handloads. I'd like to shoot something like a 200 gr ELD X to 1000yds, so taking an elk be at 400 would be realistic option with the same set up.
Click to expand...

There is a very defined process and ending wrt to building a precision rifle and suitable ammo. Just many don't want to follow all the bouncing dots.

With these longer pointy bullets, a good seater will be important BUT the biggest factor in improving your ammo will be a good reliable and precise scale. A balance beam to digi scale can be used BUT is has to give the same "output" within +/- 0.1gr. If you can keep your powder charges consistent and repeatable, you can begin to load tune with reliable results.

From there, brass and rifle prep ensures the ammo will do its best. proper rests and quality optics round up the gear.

I have several load tuning articles on my site and I want to find time to put up more info....

Anyways, neck turning is not about chamber clearance. In a factory rifle, there is typically plenty of room. the point is to build brass with consistent neck tension. Like consistent powder charge, it is part of creating the same "bang" with each firing. Use brass from the same manf and from the same lot. Check case volume if concerned but I haven't found much variation within the lot.

Once the case is fireformed, proper prep can start to keep dimensions and alignment consistent with the needs of the chamber and bore.

Lots to cover but the entire process is to make the same occur, time and again. Same is what puts that bullet out the muzzle in the same direction and that is what leads to smaller groups.

Keep good notes. Look for patterns and make sure you can tell where each bullet landed on target.

Enjoy...

Jerry
 
migrant hunter said:
I know there's no end to this, I've already made a dent in my bank account.
I had a .300wm before so I still have a lee case length gauge. I have a chrony, ordered a lee collet today.
I think I have a flash hole deburr tool somewhere. I have lots of guns to use if I just want to shoot, but with this one I intend to put more love into my handloads. I'd like to shoot something like a 200 gr ELD X to 1000yds, so taking an elk be at 400 would be realistic option with the same set up.
Click to expand...

Check out the tools by 21st century if you're needing new things. A little more money, but VERY nice. Available in Canada from extreme shooting in Winnipeg.

GGG
 
migrant hunter, all of the suggestions here have validity. So take heed.

Next, how accurate is your rifle now??? It may not be accurate enough to bother going through all of the motions you plan.

IMHO, you should do a chamber cast to check the specs. The 300WM headspaces on the belt and that has its own issues. If you are really serious about extreme accuracy and your rifle isn't shooting acceptably then I would suggest re barreling it and purchasing a new chamber reamer ground to a minimum or close to it spec. The only time I have ever seen neck turning increase accuracy was in match chambers with very tight tolerances all the way around.

Midway sells a cheap neck turning tool by the way.

Thousand yard rifles don't just happen. There may be a few but your chances of having one are almost as good as winning the main prize in a lottery.

IMHO, for most people shooting game at such extreme distances is completely beyond their capabilities. It can be done with purpose built rifles from a bench with an experienced mirage reader/wind doper etc. For a casual shooter it's a pipe dream.

Don't let me discourage you from trying though. Hopefully, as you mentioned you will keep your hunting shots on game within reasonable limits.

There are a few people, like Barry at bitsofpieces.com in Delta BC and maybe even someone closer to you that is capable of building such rifles in Canada but don't expect to build such a rig for under $5000 and that doesn't include a scope capable of handling the recoil and sharp enough to focus properly at those ranges.

From what I can see of your list, you have barely scratched the surface of what such a rifle will cost. You may be able to pick up a serviceable used rifle cheaper.

I was talking to a fellow last week that shoots his 308Win out to 1000 yards. He told me it has become an addiction. I've been there and done that and he is absolutely correct, once you get bitten by the accuracy bug the addiction begins and never really ends until you go to that big range in the afterlife.
 
There are plenty of examples of people getting to 1000yds, and well beyond, with a savage 110/111.

Don't be discouraged. You likely won't get there on your first day out, but it'll come. There's lots of 1000yd shooters on here, and there's some 1500-2000 yd shooters here too. They're not some sort of superhuman.

GGG
 
when using bushing neck dies, because they size the outside of neck instead of the inside with an expander ball,
neck must be turned tu uniform tickness to avoid pressure point on bullet and keep uniform neck tension.

I do it on my 300WM custom hunting rifle and when everything lines up well, it can be sub 1/2 at 600 yards.

all the time spent on brass prep to remove all controlable variables will eliminate causes of flyers.

when having a thight chamber, working the brass as little as possible will increase life. but usualy the first thing to fail on my 300wm brass in the primer pocket

my firsd 300wm was a savage 111 and the base of chamber was little oversized and did average 3 shots and primer pockt was done.

to do minimum work on your necks, the LEE collet die used with a redding body die when needed and a forster seater will make great amo.

200 nosler accubound pushed by H1000 with a GM215M primer was surprising in that little savage
 
Thanks guys, esp those who actually read my post before commenting. I have a lot of work to do first anyway. I haven't even made a dummy rounds to compare mag length to where the bullet will engrave the lands.
I know tiny groups cost a lot of money, but that shouldn't stop a guy with family responsibilities from enjoying shooting the set up he can afford. I'll add a little at a time, as I can afford it. I need a much better range finder, I just have a cheap Bushnell that struggles to read 400 yds.
If I can do break in, fire form and rough zero all together, then I'll look at case prep again. It's going to have to get a bit warmer outside for that to happen.
 
migrant hunter said:
Thanks guys, esp those who actually read my post before commenting. I have a lot of work to do first anyway. I haven't even made a dummy rounds to compare mag length to where the bullet will engrave the lands.
I know tiny groups cost a lot of money, but that shouldn't stop a guy with family responsibilities from enjoying shooting the set up he can afford. I'll add a little at a time, as I can afford it. I need a much better range finder, I just have a cheap Bushnell that struggles to read 400 yds.
If I can do break in, fire form and rough zero all together, then I'll look at case prep again. It's going to have to get a bit warmer outside for that to happen.
Click to expand...

Absolutely. It should be a fun challenge, not work. You'll make your own mistakes like we all do, and you'll find what works for you.

I think your savage uses AI mags, yes/no?? Should have lots of COAL space I bet.

Is your lee gauge the one for your Caliber's for CBTO, or the flexible stick one for measuring your depth to lands??

Always a friendly answer for any questions I can help you with here, and if I don't know I'll find you another friendly sort that helped me in the past.

GGG
 
Is it the Long Range Hunter version of the Savage 111 that you have? This one?

Savage 111 Long Range Hunter

If so, I think that is a decent factory gun and may be very accurate. My more detailed suggestions for getting the most out of this gun:

1. Get some good brass, which in the 300WM is probably Hornady, since Lapua does not make it. After it is fired once and trimmed, you may want to weight them all and sort by weight, into some categories like light, medium, heavy. The inexpensive Lee hand trimmer is fine for case length. The Lyman Flash hole reamer should be used to remove the forming flash inside the case.
2. Get a Hornady Headspace Gauge Comparitor and bushing(s) for your cartridge(s). Use it to measure your resizing bump of the shoulder. After you first fire a belted magnum case, you want to headspace on the shoulder and take the belt out of the picture. For a hunting gun, you want the case to chamber reliably, so a 0.002-0.003" bump from as fired should be good.
3. While the Lee Collet Die is good for maximizing cartridge life, it does not allow you to partially size the neck and bump the shoulder. I believe the only die that does that is the Forster Bushing Bump Neck Sizing Die. This gives you the turned neck fit without neck turning, and in a factory chamber.
4. It is true that a bushing dies sizes on the OD, and if that bushing is the last thing to touch your neck, then the ID may not be round if your necks have not been turned. For that reason when working with unturned brass, my suggestion is to still use the expander ball and let it be the last thing to touch the neck. You choose a bushing that just barely undersizes the neck, and then let the expander ball kiss the ID on exit. The Forster die allows this, and better still locates the expander ball high right next to the shoulder to minimize any induced runout.
5. Make a dummy cartridge with a split neck to use to determine the distance to the lands. I don't think the complicated system that Hornady tries to sell you is worth it. A dummy case and a 6" vernier gauge is fine.
6. Do a ladder test to identify the velocity sweet spots, and then while maintaining that velocity use three, 3 shot groups, to determine the ideal seating distance from the lands for each type of bullet. Keep in mind that VLD style bullets may shoot best when well away from the lands.
7. Settle on a good temperature insensitive powder like H1000, and do all your testing with it. Never change more than one thing at a time. CCI Magnum primers should be just fine.
8. A hand primer seating tool like the Lee Auto Prime will allow you to seat your primers more consistently.

Those are my thoughts in getting the most out of a factory gun without neck turning and without breaking the bank...
 
I am going to differ here a bit and say that you really need to find out if the rifle is up to the task. Before you go to any of the afore mentioned prep steps, just load for the rifle as you normally would after the initial firing of the cases. Partial size to maintain good chamber fit and pay attention to your bullet seating depth and rifling proximity, if the magazine is too short single load them to find out if the rifle will shoot accurately. Be very attentive to the accuracy of your powder charge.
Now go and shoot this rifle with several bullet and powder combinations and see IF the rifle is worth all the time and money spent on brass prep. Without spending any money on tooling any decent rifle should get you into 1 MOA @ 100 mtrs with just load tuning. Of the hundreds of rifles I have made loads for over the years only a few have been real dogs and unable to manage 2 MOA @ 100. Most will consistently keep 1-1.5 MOA with a little load development and a good number came in under the MOA with moderate load development without any brass prep other than fireform, partial size, trim and clean primer pockets.
Unless a rifle showed promise of wonderful things to come, I would not bother to keep going down the rabbit hole as you will only become disillusioned and frustrated, if the rifle itself is not up to the task at hand. I also would never bother with all the brass prep and accuracy witchcraft until the rifle is bedded and the appropriate optics are mounted and tested. If I have a raw out of the box rifle that will consistently shoot 3/4-1" at 100 mtrs (and I have had quite a few) after reasonable load development, then fly at 'er because wonderful things likely await you and each step of your brass prep will quite likely have an effect on the overall accuracy. However if your rifle doesn't have the inherent accuracy potential to be a super shooter then all the time and money spent on brass prep will be a waste of that time and money.
 
The gun is the FCNS model. I know the accustock isn't the same as a custom pillar and glass job, but it should be serviceable. I know the fundamentals of mag length/COL, charge weight consistently,etc.
I can imagine neck tension being a big deal and neck thickness being part of that. I wish the 300wm had a longer neck!
I already have H1000, it seemed well respected for the heavier bullets. All I need to do now is quit my job and leave my wife and kids, and I'll be good to go!
 
migrant hunter said:
The gun is the FCNS model. I know the accustock isn't the same as a custom pillar and glass job, but it should be serviceable. I know the fundamentals of mag length/COL, charge weight consistently,etc.
I can imagine neck tension being a big deal and neck thickness being part of that. I wish the 300wm had a longer neck!
I already have H1000, it seemed well respected for the heavier bullets. All I need to do now is quit my job and leave my wife and kids, and I'll be good to go!
Click to expand...

That model still has a 24" barrel, and the AccuTrigger so it should be OK. You are probably better off without the muzzle brake too.

The neck tension is not as big a deal as it may seem. After about 1 thou interference fit between the bullet and the neck, the brass is yielding. Two thou gives you a somewhat higher tension but not double. The yielding of the brass is somewhat self compensating when it comes to net tension on the bullet. However, the brass does work harden, and you should be careful to track the number of times the brass has been fired. Always use brass that has been fired the same number of times if you are shooting a group. After firing 5 times you can start to think about annealing.
 
I have a Witt machine brake on my 9.3x62 mauser, not pretty but it makes recoil much more manageable.
I had a model 70 Winchester in 300 wm before, it kicked like a horse. I'm curious as to how the synthetic stock will do with recoil, but the reduced muzzle jump of a brake would be nice too.
 
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