There are some really nice, expensive torque wrenches out there. An affordable one that works well and does the job is the Wheeler Firearms Accurizing Torque (FAT) Wrench. I also have a Weaver torque wrench but I prefer the easier-to-read torque levels on the Wheeler.
1/2 inch at 50 trouble. Imput appreciated !
- Thread starter Canadiankeeper
- Start date
There are some really nice, expensive torque wrenches out there. An affordable one that works well and does the job is the Wheeler Firearms Accurizing Torque (FAT) Wrench. I also have a Weaver torque wrench but I prefer the easier-to-read torque levels on the Wheeler.
Here is the results of ammo tests in my Savage heavy barrel BTVS. I have not read all the intermediate posts, just this one and the first one. You say it does not shoot match ammo, but most of those you listed in the beginning were North American made match. Most North American ammo is garbage, even the so called match stuff. You need Eley or Lapua (SK). CCI Green tag may be the exception. In any case I found 10 different types that shoot under 1/2" at 50 yards. They are all subsonic ammo, and CCI Green Tag made it, and Remington Subsonics also squeaked in.
Did you ever get a hold of any SK or Lapua ammo? It can be a struggle to get some rifles shooting up to challenge standards, even those that can shoot it still need to be paired with their ideal ammo. After I ran out of all my SK and Lapua ammo I've been disappointed with a full line of high end options from other manufacturers (Eley and RWS) I put a scope back on my Savage BTVS and had it out last week to see if it liked any of the ammo I have. It won't shoot a successful challenge with any of the Eley or RWS. At best I'll get 2-3/5 groups under 1/2". The rifle is reliable enough in that if the ammo is halfway decent quality the groups are never really any worse than 3/4"but it needs SK or Lapua to beat the challenge. I don't know what it is about the ammo but it is certainly frustrating that even expensive ammo offers no promise of performance in any given rifle, even ones already proven capable of the challenge. If only this stuff could be hand loaded!
If you haven't yet tried SK/Lapua, I'd still give your rifle one more kick at the can if you can get some in the future.
Here is the results of ammo tests in my Savage heavy barrel BTVS. I have not read all the intermediate posts, just this one and the first one. You say it does not shoot match ammo, but most of those you listed in the beginning were North American made match. Most North American ammo is garbage, even the so called match stuff. You need Eley or Lapua (SK). CCI Green tag may be the exception. In any case I found 10 different types that shoot under 1/2" at 50 yards. They are all subsonic ammo, and CCI Green Tag made it, and Remington Subsonics also squeaked in.
That's an impressive compilation of data for ammo you've used in your rifle. There's ammo there I've never even heard of or seen. How did you calculate the STDEV?
I did manage a challenge group with the Savage but it was a long and frustrating experiance.I think all the groups were in the .490 range.If I remember it was a squeeker and I used SK std Plus.I remember trying so many times and always getting that one or two flyers to spoil my target.My other savage was a no go.I have long since sold them.CZ's are quite capable with some trigger work and lots of practice,but again a lot of frustration and wasted amm
nce you step up into at minimum a 64 action anshutz the challenge becomes fairly easy.From then you just want to get smaller and smaller groups.I too have found the SK Lapua line of rimfire ammo to be the most consitant in all my rifles .I have never had good results with RWS,Federal Gold medal.I haven't tried eley as others have seen mixed results from it.My go to ammo is CenterX,good price point and very consistant almost never a flyer.
nce you step up into at minimum a 64 action anshutz the challenge becomes fairly easy.From then you just want to get smaller and smaller groups.I too have found the SK Lapua line of rimfire ammo to be the most consitant in all my rifles .I have never had good results with RWS,Federal Gold medal.I haven't tried eley as others have seen mixed results from it.My go to ammo is CenterX,good price point and very consistant almost never a flyer.It is a bit of a long story, but I use 24 two shot groups to test ammo. The average and standard deviation of the group size is for the two shots as calculated by Excel. The 5 shot groups are estimates based on shooting some of the ammo on 5 shots. The Lapua Midas M is now called Midas+. The Lapua Master is currently Lapua Center X. The Lapua Super Club is probably what is now called SK Rifle Match.
The top of the pile now with Lapua is X-Act. It is priced up there with Tenex though at $25 for a box of 50... It is claimed to be an improvement over Lapua Midas. I have not tried it, but I'm sure it would be good in my gun.
It is good ammo, but if you're not seeing results you like with SK Rifle Match, Center-X, or Midas Plus, then X-Act isn't gunna magically do it for ya. The potential benefits of this grade of ammo are lost in a Savage level rifle. If you are getting good results with the other mentions ammos then you can reasonably expect the X-Act to be a little more consistent.
Well gave the CCI 36 grain varmint a shot... Wow, cant wait to see if the standard makes it come in even more.
Debating on putting a half decent optic with a fine reticle... This $60 bushy is doing all right though ! Lol
Debating on putting a half decent optic with a fine reticle... This $60 bushy is doing all right though ! Lol
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No, haven't tried SV. Seems to like the lighter bullet (faster maybe?)
ALSO a very big thing, the smallest group was on a 15 minute wait after the group before it. It prefers to be DEAD cold. Once it started to get hot, you could see it open up and shift down left. (by hot I mean feel a heat difference in the barrel by touching with my hand)
Well since the crowd came out with pitchforks in the 1/2" challenge success thread it seems we need another venue to discuss what makes rifles accurate and tips on succeeding in the challenge. It appears the only desired posts there are those of success and some mild congratulations to the victor....
So here we go! The ultimate 1/2" challenge target result compilation is here: http://www.accuratereloading.com/2009/bl50.html
A massive ammo test was performed with an exceptionally accurate Bleiker rifle. I was musing about how rifles can display significant dispersion patterns when using ammo that is not "in tune" with the harmonics of the barrel, particularly light sporter contour barrels. A recent post in the 1/2" challenge thread had a member offering to test ammo from a machine rest and heavy test barrel, certainly interesting! The Bleiker results pretty well tell the story though, with a heavy target barrel and tuner no less. I don't need to see an experiment with a sporter barrel after reviewing the targets in the link.
What is readily apparent from the Bleiker test is that accuracy is an elusive beast even from the finest rifles. It is extremely dependent on quality ammunition with consistent muzzle velocity that is also "in tune" with the individual barrel. You see how bad it gets at the final target at the bottom of the list. Another brand of benchrest rifle would result in a different order of accuracy results, they'll each show their individual preference and this Bleiker will spit out ammo it doesn't "like" into groups up to 1"-1/4, yikes!
So how does one evaluate where their difficulties lie? Is your rifle simply not capable of 1/2" accuracy? Have you not tried the ideal ammo for it yet? Or are your shooting skills deficient for the task?
My personal experience and the Bleiker results suggest the answer is something to do with the first two options. If you have a "picky" or possibly "dud" barrel and limited access to variety of ammo, you may never get to load the bullets that would give you success. A trip to England to visit Eley's lot testing tunnel? Not in most of our budgets. The "match" ammo available to the rest of us is the leftovers from what has been heavily picked over by the world's top shooters doing exactly this lot testing then buying in bulk the best lots. You may get lots of ammo that nearly give you success but those random bad rounds in the box produce fliers that ruin your day. Target #38 of the Bleiker test is very demonstrative of this and many shooters would think they simply pulled the shots on the one bad group. I mean look at those other groups and my rifle is a frickin' Bleiker, right? It must have been me.....
This Bleiker test makes it very difficult for any shooter to place the blame for all errant shots solely on their own inability to hold steady and trigger consistently. The errant shot is plausibly explained by all the above mentioned factors, it could be due to an inaccurate rifle, a bad round of ammo, a mismatched rifle/ammo combo or a gross shooter error, maybe even a combination of those factors? It is virtually impossible to declare with certainty the exact cause of any one errant shot, so how do yo know what the heck is going on? My thoughts on the troubleshooting process:
Shooter Error: If this is the cause of poor groupings it is either due to a newbie who is slow to grasp the concepts of shot execution or in the case of experienced shooters, mistakes happen. You know when you've messed up a shot, instantly, before even seeing the impact on target. I've inadvertently triggered my rifle while adjusting my aim on target, the curse of a sensitive trigger. I've done this on the first shot of a group and been able to "chase" the flier by adjusting POA for the new POI and still shot the group in the 0.2's. If it happens mid-group then well, you blew it and you know it. There is also triggering the split second after the guy beside you lets off his centerfire, his muzzle blast knocking you off target. Your "error" here was failing to time your shot between theirs, and advanced technique only those at busy public ranges sandwiched between "tacticool" AR guys at 50 yards have to contend with. Sometimes you "twitch" on the trigger instead of your usual careful squeeze, you know you did it too. Typically the result for me is a group blown out to 1/2"-3/4".
Your occasional shooter errors are easily lost in the noise of dispersion due to rifle and ammo. Only when you have a solid baseline of accuracy for your rifle, ammo and abilities can you call an errant shot that coincides with a personally perceived shooter error. Otherwise you must be handed a rifle/ammo proven to shoot to a high accuracy level and observe if your own performance with it deviates significantly. I surmise an average group size increase of 0.2" @ 50 yards if your technique is inconsistent, but free of the gross errors mentioned above. When compared to the dispersion possible due to poor ammo/rifle combo in excess of 1", my conclusion is that subtle shooter influence is not a major factor in rifle performance until groupings of 0.4" are achieved and further refinement is attempted for IMHO it is at this threshold when it becomes equally plausible that your technique is the reason you are not shooting 0.1's and 0.2's as it is for the rifle and ammo to be almost at their peak accuracy. Assuming of course you have a high end rifle capable of that accuracy. Getting an average production rifle down to 0.3's and 0.4's is often as good as it gets for them and you can feel confident that you're shooting as well as you can. You can be sloppy with a Bleiker shooting Eley Tenex Ultimate EPS and still have a successful target, there is a buffer in the accuracy for your inconsistencies. If you have a CZ only capable of 0.3's and 0.4's then ya gotta be spot on or you'll bump some groups into the 0.5's and 0.6's and fail.
A rifle with issues: Will make itself known after a couple range days where no satisfactory results were achieved despite testing many quality brands of ammo. It won't show any real obvious preference for one particular ammo, they'll all shoot about the same, inconsistently. Some ammo's may perform quite terribly yet you know out of other rifles they do quite well. Some quick tests with shimmed support pads under the barrel will reveal whether or not it can be "tuned" into an ammo. If a dramatic difference is not observed no matter where in the barrel channel the shim is placed and performance in all locations is equally inconsistent the barrel is most likely a "dud" It is a deep rabbit hole to dive into trying to make such a rifle perform, chances are it can't be saved. Been there, done that. Re-barrel with a known good barrel and move on.
Ammo: You'll see a distinct preference for a brand or lot, the rifle comes to life and shoots great. Maybe you get mostly good performance plagued by random fliers, try another lot of this brand. Test, test and test some more. If the best candidate is "almost there" for challenge success now is the time to experiment with shimming the barrel or barrel channel bedding to try and tune in the performance if you can't or don't want to use a tuner. Free floating is just a suggestion, not a rule.
Here you can observe a dramatic difference in accuracy from only switching ammo. Circled groups are SK HV the others Lapua Midas +. There is a 1.51" average improvement by using Midas +. Shooter's intuition tells me this will never be an accurate rifle. The feeling is backed up by an experience base that shows a 2.024" average improvement with the SK HV ammo used in a different rifle (second pic).
Congrats to anyone who made it through that essay...lol. I hope I've clearly illustrated how complex rimfire accuracy is and how people shouldn't be so quick to blame themselves for poor target results, there is so much more going on that is beyond a shooter's control. Test, tweak and troubleshoot. Feel confident you've got the skills to make it happen. You probably do.
So here we go! The ultimate 1/2" challenge target result compilation is here: http://www.accuratereloading.com/2009/bl50.html
A massive ammo test was performed with an exceptionally accurate Bleiker rifle. I was musing about how rifles can display significant dispersion patterns when using ammo that is not "in tune" with the harmonics of the barrel, particularly light sporter contour barrels. A recent post in the 1/2" challenge thread had a member offering to test ammo from a machine rest and heavy test barrel, certainly interesting! The Bleiker results pretty well tell the story though, with a heavy target barrel and tuner no less. I don't need to see an experiment with a sporter barrel after reviewing the targets in the link.
What is readily apparent from the Bleiker test is that accuracy is an elusive beast even from the finest rifles. It is extremely dependent on quality ammunition with consistent muzzle velocity that is also "in tune" with the individual barrel. You see how bad it gets at the final target at the bottom of the list. Another brand of benchrest rifle would result in a different order of accuracy results, they'll each show their individual preference and this Bleiker will spit out ammo it doesn't "like" into groups up to 1"-1/4, yikes!
So how does one evaluate where their difficulties lie? Is your rifle simply not capable of 1/2" accuracy? Have you not tried the ideal ammo for it yet? Or are your shooting skills deficient for the task?
My personal experience and the Bleiker results suggest the answer is something to do with the first two options. If you have a "picky" or possibly "dud" barrel and limited access to variety of ammo, you may never get to load the bullets that would give you success. A trip to England to visit Eley's lot testing tunnel? Not in most of our budgets. The "match" ammo available to the rest of us is the leftovers from what has been heavily picked over by the world's top shooters doing exactly this lot testing then buying in bulk the best lots. You may get lots of ammo that nearly give you success but those random bad rounds in the box produce fliers that ruin your day. Target #38 of the Bleiker test is very demonstrative of this and many shooters would think they simply pulled the shots on the one bad group. I mean look at those other groups and my rifle is a frickin' Bleiker, right? It must have been me.....
This Bleiker test makes it very difficult for any shooter to place the blame for all errant shots solely on their own inability to hold steady and trigger consistently. The errant shot is plausibly explained by all the above mentioned factors, it could be due to an inaccurate rifle, a bad round of ammo, a mismatched rifle/ammo combo or a gross shooter error, maybe even a combination of those factors? It is virtually impossible to declare with certainty the exact cause of any one errant shot, so how do yo know what the heck is going on? My thoughts on the troubleshooting process:
Shooter Error: If this is the cause of poor groupings it is either due to a newbie who is slow to grasp the concepts of shot execution or in the case of experienced shooters, mistakes happen. You know when you've messed up a shot, instantly, before even seeing the impact on target. I've inadvertently triggered my rifle while adjusting my aim on target, the curse of a sensitive trigger
. I've done this on the first shot of a group and been able to "chase" the flier by adjusting POA for the new POI and still shot the group in the 0.2's. If it happens mid-group then well, you blew it and you know it. There is also triggering the split second after the guy beside you lets off his centerfire, his muzzle blast knocking you off target. Your "error" here was failing to time your shot between theirs, and advanced technique only those at busy public ranges sandwiched between "tacticool" AR guys at 50 yards have to contend with. Sometimes you "twitch" on the trigger instead of your usual careful squeeze, you know you did it too. Typically the result for me is a group blown out to 1/2"-3/4". Your occasional shooter errors are easily lost in the noise of dispersion due to rifle and ammo. Only when you have a solid baseline of accuracy for your rifle, ammo and abilities can you call an errant shot that coincides with a personally perceived shooter error. Otherwise you must be handed a rifle/ammo proven to shoot to a high accuracy level and observe if your own performance with it deviates significantly. I surmise an average group size increase of 0.2" @ 50 yards if your technique is inconsistent, but free of the gross errors mentioned above. When compared to the dispersion possible due to poor ammo/rifle combo in excess of 1", my conclusion is that subtle shooter influence is not a major factor in rifle performance until groupings of 0.4" are achieved and further refinement is attempted for IMHO it is at this threshold when it becomes equally plausible that your technique is the reason you are not shooting 0.1's and 0.2's as it is for the rifle and ammo to be almost at their peak accuracy. Assuming of course you have a high end rifle capable of that accuracy. Getting an average production rifle down to 0.3's and 0.4's is often as good as it gets for them and you can feel confident that you're shooting as well as you can. You can be sloppy with a Bleiker shooting Eley Tenex Ultimate EPS and still have a successful target, there is a buffer in the accuracy for your inconsistencies. If you have a CZ only capable of 0.3's and 0.4's then ya gotta be spot on or you'll bump some groups into the 0.5's and 0.6's and fail.
A rifle with issues: Will make itself known after a couple range days where no satisfactory results were achieved despite testing many quality brands of ammo. It won't show any real obvious preference for one particular ammo, they'll all shoot about the same, inconsistently. Some ammo's may perform quite terribly yet you know out of other rifles they do quite well. Some quick tests with shimmed support pads under the barrel will reveal whether or not it can be "tuned" into an ammo. If a dramatic difference is not observed no matter where in the barrel channel the shim is placed and performance in all locations is equally inconsistent the barrel is most likely a "dud" It is a deep rabbit hole to dive into trying to make such a rifle perform, chances are it can't be saved. Been there, done that. Re-barrel with a known good barrel and move on.
Ammo: You'll see a distinct preference for a brand or lot, the rifle comes to life and shoots great. Maybe you get mostly good performance plagued by random fliers, try another lot of this brand. Test, test and test some more. If the best candidate is "almost there" for challenge success now is the time to experiment with shimming the barrel or barrel channel bedding to try and tune in the performance if you can't or don't want to use a tuner. Free floating is just a suggestion, not a rule.
Here you can observe a dramatic difference in accuracy from only switching ammo. Circled groups are SK HV the others Lapua Midas +. There is a 1.51" average improvement by using Midas +. Shooter's intuition tells me this will never be an accurate rifle. The feeling is backed up by an experience base that shows a 2.024" average improvement with the SK HV ammo used in a different rifle (second pic).
Congrats to anyone who made it through that essay...lol. I hope I've clearly illustrated how complex rimfire accuracy is and how people shouldn't be so quick to blame themselves for poor target results, there is so much more going on that is beyond a shooter's control. Test, tweak and troubleshoot. Feel confident you've got the skills to make it happen. You probably do.
TD;DR
The last line though is bang on.
" people shouldn't be so quick to blame themselves for poor target results, there is so much more going on that is beyond a shooter's control. Test, tweak and troubleshoot. Feel confident you've got the skills to make it happen. You probably do. "
Pretty much, buy a nice rifle and slam some good ammo down it. You can do this challenge.
Here is a couple of groups of High velocity Hallow point ammo... Still hitting that 1/2 inch mark.
I'm chewing through my excess hunting ammo, sounds like a bad idea... I may stop doing that now...
Anyways just wait till some match ammo is put down the tube...
And the rifle
The last line though is bang on.
" people shouldn't be so quick to blame themselves for poor target results, there is so much more going on that is beyond a shooter's control. Test, tweak and troubleshoot. Feel confident you've got the skills to make it happen. You probably do. "
Pretty much, buy a nice rifle and slam some good ammo down it. You can do this challenge.
Here is a couple of groups of High velocity Hallow point ammo... Still hitting that 1/2 inch mark.
I'm chewing through my excess hunting ammo, sounds like a bad idea... I may stop doing that now...
Anyways just wait till some match ammo is put down the tube...
And the rifle
I haven't read every post in this thread, but I'll add something anyway. my apologies to anyone who may have posted this possibility already. your rifle's magazine may be the source of the unexplained flyers on the target. if the bullet gets deformed on the way into the chamber, odds are it won't do very well on the target. it may be the first cartridge, the third or the last one. try cycling a magazine full of rounds without firing, and see if any bullets are damaged going into battery.
Excellent observation and I think you're the first to mention it. I have a perfect example of this from my shooting yesterday. Even though I was using a single shot adapter in the rifle the feeding wasn't perfect. The high flyer on the top bull got real jammed up trying to feed in. I then started to insert the round mostly into the chamber by gently pushing with a finger rather than laying it on the adapter and using the bolt to feed it in. The results showed some improvement.
tried something new for the first time in my life.......
torquing the action screws...
I never would have thought that even with bedding tightening the action screws 1 inch pound at a time made all the world of difference
shot 10 shot groups at 100 yards on a calm day, started at 15 inch pounds and went up 5 at a time all the way up to 45 inch pounds, 40 inch pounds was the best so then I went to 37 and worked up 1 at a time until I shot the small group, next group opened up so backed off the screws and reset the torque to my sweet spot and retested...yeap it's a winner group.....who would have thought that strong manning the action screws in willy nilly could lead to accuracy issues........
torquing the action screws...
I never would have thought that even with bedding tightening the action screws 1 inch pound at a time made all the world of difference
shot 10 shot groups at 100 yards on a calm day, started at 15 inch pounds and went up 5 at a time all the way up to 45 inch pounds, 40 inch pounds was the best so then I went to 37 and worked up 1 at a time until I shot the small group, next group opened up so backed off the screws and reset the torque to my sweet spot and retested...yeap it's a winner group.....who would have thought that strong manning the action screws in willy nilly could lead to accuracy issues........
There are so many variables in 22nd accuracy. I have really good equipment and can still find issues. .Action screw torque, dirty barrel. cold temperature, cold bore flyer, wind,loading ammo without nicking it,bugs flying around you, crappie ammo,,poor rest set up.fortunately I have enough experience I can usually trouble shoot when I have issues. I haven't even touched on your type of rifle, bedding, free floated barrel.
