CZ questions from a "CZ fan"

.22LRGUY

.22LRGUY

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OK...so as a big proponent of the CZ452 line of rifles, I've admittedly had the blinders on for all other offerings from CZ. I used to have a 452 Varmint in 17HMR which I foolishly sold, currently own a 452 Varmint in .22 that is living in S. Alberta waiting for my next gopher safari...and an open-sighted BRNO 2E to scratch the "CZ itch" here when when the mood strikes. :) I know NO rifle maker is perfect and duds are always possible...but the 452s in my experience have been the best rimfire guns I've personally owned. I think they are (rather, were) the best value considering the quality you got for the price. In almost 30 years of avid rimfire shooting, there aren't many brands that I haven't either owned or had my hands on. None were bigger $ rifles than the CZ452s so perhaps that's a limiting factor, but there you have it.

Right or wrong, I look at the 455 as a cheaper version of the 452...a step in the wrong direction for CZ. Right or wrong (again :) )...I consider interchangeable barrel idea a gimmick more than anything. Other than the barrel NOT threading into the receiver on the 455, what are the main differences? What does the 453 offer different from the 455? Same barrel/attachment method as the 455 + and adjustable trigger? I don't have any hands-on experience with the 455/453, but am I wrong about the non-threaded barrel/receiver being a step backwards for CZ? Is accuracy as reliably good with the 455/453? I feel like I'd only trust these guns if they had a cantilever scope mount off the barrel!

Like most of us here, I skim through the Rimfire EE frequently and can't quite understand the asking price for used CZs. I know "new" ones are hit hard by the crappy exchange rate against the US dollar, but somehow that seems to be driving-up used costs significantly as well. I guess I understand sellers taking advantage of this...but I'd be curious about the final sale price of used guns these days.

My current obsession is with the idea of buying an Anschutz, but with that rifle being a little "out of range" at the moment, just pondering that decision and the other non-CZ options. Really starting to feel like there aren't any nice bolt guns outside of CZ/Anschutz unless maybe...SAKO..?
 
The 453 is in the 452 family, it does not have the barrel swap option. It's the 452 with a set trigger, basically. The 455 is a different animal.

Prices will no doubt continue to climb on the 452/453's. Just like so many other guns, the demand for older models combined with rising MSRP's will continue to buoy the prices of used ones right along with the new ones.

The last part, I have wondered about myself. The CZ is nearly unbeatable at the price, so how much do you have to spend to get significantly better? Is an Anschutz or Cooper better? Yes, but how much better, and is it really worth it to you?
 
GD7 said:
The 453 is in the 452 family, it does not have the barrel swap option. It's the 452 with a set trigger, basically. The 455 is a different animal.

Prices will no doubt continue to climb on the 452/453's. Just like so many other guns, the demand for older models combined with rising MSRP's will continue to buoy the prices of used ones right along with the new ones.

The last part, I have wondered about myself. The CZ is nearly unbeatable at the price, so how much do you have to spend to get significantly better? Is an Anschutz or Cooper better? Yes, but how much better, and is it really worth it to you?
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^so the 453's barrel is threaded into the receiver? Asking because I don't know...and I clicked "reply" before Googling myself. lol

And I agree about the last part. I once sprung for a Cooper centerfire to ease the pain of selling a boat I could no longer afford to keep...or pay to store over the winter. The boat had to go either way, but my wife agreed to turn the other cheek. lol Anyhow, without a doubt it was a fine example of craftsmanship but I never got cozy with laying in cow patties with the thing. Cooper or not~a .204 Ruger deserves to be used on varmints and well...couldn't enjoy it without being paranoid about dinging it/diminishing it's value. To the question though~superb quality, unbelievable trigger, but it took a long time to figure-out a load it shot well...and even longer for me to get good behind it. Not sure why. My HB Savage .223 felt/shot naturally and any groundhog I spotted inside of 350 yards was doomed with me at the wheel. The Cooper~seemed to take more effort to shoot well. In range conditions with solid rests fore/aft~tiny groups @ 100 yards once I had it sorted out. (39gr. SBK & Reloader 10X~a bullet and a powder I had no plans of ever buying/using)
 
I'm a huge CZ fan, but the Anschutz is definitely a big step up, and worth the extra $ IMO. a used 64 sporter isn't a lot more than a used CZ these days. triggers are so much nicer.

I look at the 455 similar to how you do. I've had 2 and no longer have any. I've kept several 452's and 453's.

prices go up because of supply and demand. recently, the discontinuation of the 452 and 453 means people are scrambling to pick them up, and also asking much more for them if selling to try to capitalize on the market. many asking prices are currently way too high. can't imagine a used 452 selling for $700-$800, but some people are trying.
 
I don't see an issue with the "design" of the 455. The barrel attachment is solid, and you could always permanently affix it with retaining compound (Loctite 680 for ex) to satisfy your idiosyncrasy. What I do see an issue with, is the sloppy manufacturing practices an apparent lack of any quality control program beyond the scope of "Feed, Fire, Extract" i.e "Function" test. There seems to have been a shift in their production quality since the 452's of yesteryear that many have enjoyed. Proof is in the pudding, when you stick a good barrel into a 455 action, they out shoot factory Annies, so there is absolutely nothing wrong with the design of the 455 action compared to the 452. It's all about making a good barrel with a clean cut chamber and crown, then fitting it to the action with tight headspace specs. If CZ doesn't get their priorities straightened out in this regard, they're on their way to becoming nothing but a "plinker" brand.
 
RabidM4U5 said:
I don't see an issue with the "design" of the 455. The barrel attachment is solid, and you could always permanently affix it with retaining compound (Loctite 680 for ex) to satisfy your idiosyncrasy. What I do see an issue with, is the sloppy manufacturing practices an apparent lack of any quality control program beyond the scope of "Feed, Fire, Extract" i.e "Function" test. There seems to have been a shift in their production quality since the 452's of yesteryear that many have enjoyed. Proof is in the pudding, when you stick a good barrel into a 455 action, they out shoot factory Annies, so there is absolutely nothing wrong with the design of the 455 action compared to the 452. It's all about making a good barrel with a clean cut chamber and crown, then fitting it to the action with tight headspace specs. If CZ doesn't get their priorities straightened out in this regard, they're on their way to becoming nothing but a "plinker" brand.
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All the above is very sound, except for the simplicity of the idea that all you have to do is swap the factory barrel for a "good" one and the 455 outshoots Anschutz rifles. Perhaps its overreach or overstatement. A custom barrel has to be imported, which is not inexpensive and time consuming. A custom barrel must also be installed with the assurance that headspace is correct, something which is known to be a challenge. Gone are the days when a CZ shooter could believe that he had only to order a Lilja and he was off to the races. And to help ensure a better shooting rifle, many would recommend changing the CZ 455 stock for something better, something that is pillared and glass bedded and with less risk of flex.

Of course, none of this amounts to a hill of beans for those who are inclined to modify a stock CZ 455 and are good at it. For myself, I've had much greater satisfaction from spending a little more money and getting an Anschutz or two because they are have the quality and performance that I want. To be sure, they cost more money, but they give me what I want and that is trouble-free accuracy and great fit and finish. I know that Anschutz rifles hold their value, which is something that a rifle with a more dubious pedigree cannot realize.
 
grauhanen said:
All the above is very sound, except for the simplicity of the idea that all you have to do is swap the factory barrel for a "good" one and the 455 outshoots Anschutz rifles. Perhaps its overreach or overstatement. A custom barrel has to be imported, which is not inexpensive and time consuming. A custom barrel must also be installed with the assurance that headspace is correct, something which is known to be a challenge. Gone are the days when a CZ shooter could believe that he had only to order a Lilja and he was off to the races. And to help ensure a better shooting rifle, many would recommend changing the CZ 455 stock for something better, something that is pillared and glass bedded and with less risk of flex.
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Those days may be returning, the Lilja group buy pilot barrels set up by RFC member & custom rifle builder djdilliodon are ready and have shipped out. Some buyers have already received theirs and we anticipate some test results shortly. http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=921017&page=2 They also include a shim kit, and have had the barrel shanks turned with extra length, so that the user may install to the precise headspace they desire for their action. Of course, some skill and precision measuring tools are still required to do this, so the "average" user cannot simply "Drop-In" these barrels either, but it is a quick and easy job for a competent gunsmith to do for the user if they find themselves unable to properly measure their action. Advanced users may also index test this new design and "glue in" instead of using the barrel screws. We now have a Canadian custom barrel maker, JC Custom Barrels, but he currently is unable to produce rimfire barrels. In time, one looking for custom barrels will no longer be forced to import them, unless they desire a specific U.S manufacturer.

So yes, "stick a good barrel in a 455" may have been a slight oversimplification of modifying a CZ for performance, the supporting mods required along with that feel like common knowledge to me at this point, standard operating procedure for a new CZ if you will, that I didn't feel like writing an essay to explain the statement every time it's said. I tend to forget that not everyone here has scoured the depths of Rimfire Central forums to the extent that I have. Would it be more appropriate for me to say, then, "With a good barrel, CZs can be made to shoot better than factory Anschütz rifles"?

Given the cost of building up a CZ to this performance level and the accuracy gamble in staying with the CZ factory barrel, the OP may be better served by saving up for that new Anschütz.
 
RabidM4U5 said:
...the OP may be better served by saving up for that new Anschütz.
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Canadiankeeper said:
Brother, I can tell you. After 4-5 savage 22lr's then 4-5 CZ's ... I just ponied up and got an annie... Will never go back.
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^yep...it's in the cards for me for sure. As to when? Good question...but I know that very little stirs me when I look in the EE these days. Nordic's site? I limit myself to one visit a week. :)
 
Canadiankeeper said:
Brother, I can tell you. After 4-5 savage 22lr's then 4-5 CZ's ... I just ponied up and got an annie... Will never go back.
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Your advice is very timely for me... I was just getting ready to pull the trigger on a CZ tomorrow. Now I'm not so sure. I may have to have a closer look at an Annie.
 
Had three Annies to start with, although 64 actions. Bought a few CZ's to see what all the fuss was about. Wound up keeping four 452's. They are good, no doubt about it. Finally, Nordic had a good sale on, acquired my 1710DKL. The statement about not looking back is true. Usually take my 452 FS along as back up, but the Annie has taken the driver's seat. Not really a downside, but have had the same target results with the FS as the 1710, shooting good ammo.
 
I also have 3 CZ 452 s. Great guns and have had fun tweaking and getting them to shoot. I am using SK plus and CCI and have very good results. However on a whim I bought a 64 MPR. It is definitely a different class of gun. Out of the box it shoots better(first five shots at 50 yards clover leafed), the trigger is super, the stock more comfortable, and the mass of it are immediately noticeable. I will keep the CZs as they are still fun to shoot and can serve as field guns, I don t see bringing the Annie to the woods. Thus said, as long as the work put into the CZ results in improved accuracy and is to your standard, it is a very satisfying, and a enjoyable experience. Really when did anyone actually work on a trigger, torque, barrel stock fit, on other guns and really understand their impact on accuracy, it was an great education for me.
 
krausb said:
Your advice is very timely for me... I was just getting ready to pull the trigger on a CZ tomorrow. Now I'm not so sure. I may have to have a closer look at an Annie.
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Looking at every option is always a good idea, but I wasn't really meaning this to be a CZ vs. Anschutz sort of thread. I STILL think CZs are the best rifles for the money, and whether or not an Anschutz (for me) costing more than 3X as much proves to be a good idea~remains to be seen. I don't own it yet! :) I don't think buying a CZ452 is ever a bad idea and I'm still keeping an eye out for one in 17M2. However, top priority for me is the slow road to an Anschutz. Until then, my 452 and BRNO 2E will get the attention they deserve. No plan to sell either rifle.
 
I appreciate the accuracy potential of the Anschutz rifles, but I'm going to be totally honest and just say it: they look odd to me, utilitatian as opposed to pretty. That's totally subjective of course.

My dream was always a Cooper, but when I got mine, I came to realize that at 7 times the cost of the CZ, it wasn't twice the rifle. I still would have kept it if there hadn't been a problem with Cooper though.

As they say: when you buy an Anschutz, you get a nice action that happens to have a stock attached to it. When you buy a Cooper, you get a nice stock that happens to have an action attached to it ;)
 
cliffmcc said:
I also have 3 CZ 452 s. Great guns and have had fun tweaking and getting them to shoot. I am using SK plus and CCI and have very good results. However on a whim I bought a 64 MPR. It is definitely a different class of gun. Out of the box it shoots better(first five shots at 50 yards clover leafed), the trigger is super, the stock more comfortable, and the mass of it are immediately noticeable. I will keep the CZs as they are still fun to shoot and can serve as field guns, I don t see bringing the Annie to the woods. Thus said, as long as the work put into the CZ results in improved accuracy and is to your standard, it is a very satisfying, and a enjoyable experience. Really when did anyone actually work on a trigger, torque, barrel stock fit, on other guns and really understand their impact on accuracy, it was an great education for me.
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Pretty much, bore sighted... This was my first 5 shot group... (obviously I made corrections to the optic after) but the group is astounding..5 shots in it came in at around .250...



.22LRGUY said:
Looking at every option is always a good idea, but I wasn't really meaning this to be a CZ vs. Anschutz sort of thread. I STILL think CZs are the best rifles for the money, and whether or not an Anschutz (for me) costing more than 3X as much proves to be a good idea~remains to be seen. I don't own it yet! :) I don't think buying a CZ452 is ever a bad idea and I'm still keeping an eye out for one in 17M2. However, top priority for me is the slow road to an Anschutz. Until then, my 452 and BRNO 2E will get the attention they deserve. No plan to sell either rifle.
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Its not to much a competition thread as just everyone reaffirming that Anschutz are in a league of their own. They are both worth what you pay for them.

GD7 said:
I appreciate the accuracy potential of the Anschutz rifles, but I'm going to be totally honest and just say it: they look odd to me, utilitatian as opposed to pretty. That's totally subjective of course.

My dream was always a Cooper, but when I got mine, I came to realize that at 7 times the cost of the CZ, it wasn't twice the rifle. I still would have kept it if there hadn't been a problem with Cooper though.

As they say: when you buy an Anschutz, you get a nice action that happens to have a stock attached to it. When you buy a Cooper, you get a nice stock that happens to have an action attached to it ;)
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Utilitarian, depends what one you look at.. The tactical trainer, HUGE yes to utilitarian.. The biathlon ones also..

Sounds like you missed the "hunting rimfire" section of Nordick

http://www.nordicmarksman.com/1712-Silhouette-Sporter-22LR.html

Now that is a pretty rifle...
 
My 1710 came in a pretty nice stock, it's a hunter. The super fancy Cooper or custom stocks don't mean they shoot better. No safe queens allowed here. I've seen the "too nice to take out" many times.
 
Canadiankeeper said:
Sounds like you missed the "hunting rimfire" section of Nordick

http://www.nordicmarksman.com/1712-Silhouette-Sporter-22LR.html

Now that is a pretty rifle...
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It's nice, but the checkering says "1970's Remington 700" to me. Not really my thing, but to each their own.

metalbender said:
My 1710 came in a pretty nice stock, it's a hunter. The super fancy Cooper or custom stocks don't mean they shoot better.
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Coopers belong in the toy box, not the tool box...IMO. The opposite of Anschutz rifles.
 
GD7 said:
It's nice, but the checkering says "1970's Remington 700" to me. Not really my thing, but to each their own.
Coopers belong in the toy box, not the tool box...IMO. The opposite of Anschutz rifles.
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Well yah thats literally just one rifle I pulled out. Tons on Nordics site.
 
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