Help!! Shooting low is driving me crazy

MG4A6

MG4A6

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Some history first, I have been shooting 2 full size M&P .40's for years. Decided to try a 9mm so I bought the M&P 9 VTAC and love the hell out of it!
Since the first round down range with the .40's I have always shot 4" to 6" low depending on range. @ 10 yards I am 4" low and so fourth. My grouping are not to shabby just low.
I have recently decided to switch from WSF powder to CFE Pistol. So I tried 4.6gr up to 5.0gr and 4.6/4.7 seems to be the best grouping however I STILL after putting tens of thousand of rounds down range cannot hit where I want with these damn things! I am stubborn in that I do not want to aim higher to hit something lower at 10 yards, you should not have to aim at the top of a suspects head from 10 yards to hit him between the eyes with no damage to a hostage... not that that scenario will happen but you get the idea.

The .40's have the 2 white dots on the rear and one on the front, standard tactical sight I do believe, The 9mm has viking tactics fiber optic on top with tritium underneath also tactical not target sights so with all sights I line them up... 3 dots side by side, aim 4" high... which is enough that I cannot even see the bullseye because the barrel covers it, pull the trigger and it is pretty damn close to the bullseye if not in it.

Call me bat sh!t crazy but I would like to see what I'm shooting at. Somebody please help me figure out whats going on cause I would love to hit what I'm aiming at :)

Side note... Got my first squib today!
Going along all is fine, boom boom boom boom click wtf? The bullet went in 1 inch and stopped, not enough pressure for the brass to eject. I would think that there was no powder just the primer pressure caused the bullet to move forward but there was no primer detonation noise just a click... after removing the mag, securing the slide back I watched as the empty brass fell to the ground. I immediately knew what happened and got so excited I didn't even look at the brass that fell :(
 
I would seem to me that you have a combat sight setup, where you cover your target rather than aim just below it. Best solution would be either adjust your shooting, or replace your sights.
 
^^ That would be my guess as well. I have several pistols where I have to hold sight over the target like image 3. I much prefer a 6 O'clock hold like image 2 below.

sightimages.jpg
 
6 o'clock hold, 'standard hold' and 'driving the dot' - 1, 2, and 3 above. Many modern combat handguns require you to 'drive the dot' to hit POA, so that the sight picture is consistent between carbines running reflex sights and pistols using irons, since you may have to switch between the two quickly, in a bad situation. If you can't adjust to the firearm, adjust the firearm to you.
 
Can you provide more clarity on what is happening, is your point of impact (POI) the same as your point of aim (POA)? If that's the case then the two posts above may be valid suggestions and just adjusting your POA will suffice.

If however your POI is always 4-6 inches lower than your POA, the issue is not your sight picture but rather pre ignition push. Pre ignition push is a very common problem with shooting a pistol and it is basically you anticipating recoil and trying to control it.

To get your POA to match your POI try the following things:
1. Dry fire with an intense focus on your front sight (you should be focusing on your sight to the point where you don't even notice when the gun goes off. Focus on seeing the most minute details of your front sight)

2. Live fire ball and dummy drills. (make up some dummy rounds and intersperse them in the magazine, this will allow you to see if your pushing the gun lower in anticipation of recoil when you hit a dummy round vice a live round. Every time you have a dummy round and you drop the muzzle of the pistol, unload and do 10 perfect dry fires then load up and go again on the ball and dummy drill)

3. Focus on the front sight. Through all live fire focus on the front sight like its the only thing in the world, don't focus on the target (target should be fuzzy) or trigger pull just the front sight. Sing a little ditty in your head if you need to something along the lines of just repeating front sight, front sight, front sight, etc if that helps. Your aiming to see the front sight lift off the target when the gun goes off and then have it return to the same POA without effort, don't try to muscle the gun just relax and let it do its thing.
 
Long said:
Can you provide more clarity on what is happening, is your point of impact (POI) the same as your point of aim (POA)? If that's the case then the two posts above may be valid suggestions and just adjusting your POA will suffice.

If however your POI is always 4-6 inches lower than your POA, the issue is not your sight picture but rather pre ignition push. Pre ignition push is a very common problem with shooting a pistol and it is basically you anticipating recoil and trying to control it.

To get your POA to match your POI try the following things:
1. Dry fire with an intense focus on your front sight (you should be focusing on your sight to the point where you don't even notice when the gun goes off. Focus on seeing the most minute details of your front sight)

2. Live fire ball and dummy drills. (make up some dummy rounds and intersperse them in the magazine, this will allow you to see if your pushing the gun lower in anticipation of recoil when you hit a dummy round vice a live round. Every time you have a dummy round and you drop the muzzle of the pistol, unload and do 10 perfect dry fires then load up and go again on the ball and dummy drill)

3. Focus on the front sight. Through all live fire focus on the front sight like its the only thing in the world, don't focus on the target (target should be fuzzy) or trigger pull just the front sight. Sing a little ditty in your head if you need to something along the lines of just repeating front sight, front sight, front sight, etc if that helps. Your aiming to see the front sight lift off the target when the gun goes off and then have it return to the same POA without effort, don't try to muscle the gun just relax and let it do its thing.
Click to expand...

Also, thanks for this advice. I have a new Zastava M-57, and I always shoot low with it (when I shoot my High Standard .22 or my old .38 s & W Webly Enfileld, I hit the target every time. I have added a Hogue grip sleeve as well. I am at the point where I have little faith in the pistol left; yet when I let others shoot it, they hit the target. I will take this advice to heart and give it a try. I have about 700 rounds of ammo left, and if I don't get any better with it, it is going down the road. Shame, because it is a beautifully made and finished pistol, and it functions perfectly each and every time.
 
Long said:
If however your POI is always 4-6 inches lower than your POA, the issue is not your sight picture but rather pre ignition push.
Click to expand...

Pre-ignition push = fancy way of saying flinch, lol.

Great advice by the way, I give every new shooter the same advice.

Cheers!
 
Trinimon said:
^^ That would be my guess as well. I have several pistols where I have to hold sight over the target like image 3. I much prefer a 6 O'clock hold like image 2 below.

sightimages.jpg
Click to expand...

I have three M&P's 2x9MM and 2x40cal and all for shoot as in Sight Image 2 above.If your sights are factory that is how the gun is set up. Not sure if that helps or not.

Pre-ignition push ...I like that. So much easier on the male ego than calling it a flinch. :>)

Take Care

Bob
 
My MP9 shot way low outta the box. I put an Apex trigger group in it, and replaced the rear sight with an adjustable, and all problems solved. It now shoots where I like looking (sight image 2).
 
adb said:
My MP9 shot way low outta the box. I put an Apex trigger group in it, and replaced the rear sight with an adjustable, and all problems solved. It now shoots where I like looking (sight image 2).
Click to expand...

I suspect it was you not the gun. With a lighter crisp trigger pull you have less tendency to pull the gun downward as you reach the break point. The Apex kits whether the Competition or Duty make a huge improvement in the guns performance.

Take Care

Bob
 
When gripping the pistol, try placing the thumb of the support hand parallel to the lower frame of the pistol?

Was at the range this weekend, a shooting buddy was shooting low as well. I suggested to change support hand positioning and helped his point of impact.
 
4n2t0 said:
Pre-ignition push = fancy way of saying flinch, lol.

Great advice by the way, I give every new shooter the same advice.

Cheers!
Click to expand...

Pre-ignition push. That will sound way more official when I try to explain my targets to my shooting partner lol..... Better than I hate handguns give me my rifle
 
I have practiced a ton to avoid flinching, when I pull the trigger and there is no round in the chamber or something odd happens I rarely flinch. Caught myself doing it 3 times in the past 2 years so I don't think that's the problem(usually when I'm dumping the mag in a tight as spot as possible as fast as possible)... But you never know, next time I am at the range I will see who the Miculek is and see if they want to give it a go for me :)

Take sight image 3 from above, if I were to do that my group would be 4" below that center line... in a 2" group though. It's like I have to hide the threat with my barrel lol. I think I will head down to the shooting center and try some of their pistols with different sights.

Long: Great info! I will focus on the front sight like you suggested instead of focusing on lining up all the sites.
 
Sounds like you're flinching.

Next time you go to the range, load up a couple mags with alternating live rounds and snap caps. Practice putting a round on your target, and slooooowly pulling the trigger on the snap cap round while staying on target. Rinse and repeat. After a few mags of that I bet your flinch will be far less severe.
 
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