So this just happened-- Game over man >.<
- Thread starter Merovingian
- Start date
Merovingian
CGN Regular
- Location
- West Coast
After purchasing the rifle it was sent to a gunsmith to check the headspacing among other things. Apparently everything checked out so I'm leaning/hoping it was just a unlucky bolt. I still haven't herd back from the place I bought it from, spoke with them yesterday morning. Informed them about the bolt failure but also explained that I have since chopped the barrel, changed the op rod guide, repaired a faulty trigger (noticed after buying the gun it still went click with the safety on) so I wasn't sure if was under warranty anymore. Super friendly guys but they told me they have to speak with the folks that do the warranty work and see if the bolt could just be replaced.
After a bit of reading it seems a USGI bolt is the way to go, my smith has a few in stock so I might just skip trying to get it warrantied and have him just fit the GI bolt in it.
After a bit of reading it seems a USGI bolt is the way to go, my smith has a few in stock so I might just skip trying to get it warrantied and have him just fit the GI bolt in it.
Merovingian
CGN Regular
- Location
- West Coast
So I just herd back from wolverine supplies about the rifle and what they were going to do to help me out which is apparently nothing. Even though the failure was not related to any of the gunsmithing work done it which the wolverine rep agreed, they won't do a thing because I voided the warranty having the barrel cut down and a m14 BlackFeather chassis installed.
I guess it's par for the coarse for these companies to get out repairing or replacing parts if they can. Two major failures, faulty bolt and a bad trigger. I wasn't asking for a lot, perhaps just a replacement bolt or something.
Anyways thanks everyone for the input, I learned a lot and it was appreciated.
I guess it's par for the coarse for these companies to get out repairing or replacing parts if they can. Two major failures, faulty bolt and a bad trigger. I wasn't asking for a lot, perhaps just a replacement bolt or something.
Anyways thanks everyone for the input, I learned a lot and it was appreciated.
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I'm not posting much on this site due to the rampant bashing of indigenous peoples that is allowed on this site ..... but.....
pretty sad to hear that wolverine supplies stiffed you on replacing that bolt. Voiding your warranty over extremely common routine upgrades to the firearm.
Will never do business with those folks if they so readily wash thier hands of an obviously defective bolt.
These companies.... importing crap , knowing it's crap, but it has a fantastic margin and is a popular firearm that draws in customers for other products..... but they can't replace a defective bolt?
That's just bad business and I'd be going up one side of the owner and down the other if i was handed an excuse like that to bail on warranty.
pretty sad to hear that wolverine supplies stiffed you on replacing that bolt. Voiding your warranty over extremely common routine upgrades to the firearm.
Will never do business with those folks if they so readily wash thier hands of an obviously defective bolt.
These companies.... importing crap , knowing it's crap, but it has a fantastic margin and is a popular firearm that draws in customers for other products..... but they can't replace a defective bolt?
That's just bad business and I'd be going up one side of the owner and down the other if i was handed an excuse like that to bail on warranty.
Trying to wrap my head around why this should be Wolverine's issue. From what I understand they do not import Norinco products. Warantee problems should be handled by the Canadian importer of this product, we have known for many years that when you buy a Norinco product warrantee is pretty much non existent.
Merovingian
CGN Regular
- Location
- West Coast
You may be right, it's my first time with a faulty gun. In my conversations with them I was never given a number or name of who I should be dealing with in regards to warranty. Just the standard " sorry to hear about the failure, let us look into it." I just figured being that the gun is still so new that i would be dealing with the retailer who sold it to me.
It was just the hands up in the air " not our problem" type response that left a sour taste. Wolverine has been amazing to me up till now so I'm not sure what to think.
Rayleigh_Scattering
Regular
- Location
- Under the arch
If you put the broken pieces back together how much deformation was there before they separated? <pics?>
Strength is hard to measure without the right tools, but insufficient ductility is pretty easy to spot. If the two parts line up neatly it's a fair bet that it wasn't tempered hot enough for this application. Or that it had some chemistry issue that made the originally specified tempering schedule insufficient.
There are times when I'd want a part to fail brittle, but a bolt/receiver/barrel isn't one of them.
Strength is hard to measure without the right tools, but insufficient ductility is pretty easy to spot. If the two parts line up neatly it's a fair bet that it wasn't tempered hot enough for this application. Or that it had some chemistry issue that made the originally specified tempering schedule insufficient.
There are times when I'd want a part to fail brittle, but a bolt/receiver/barrel isn't one of them.
Merovingian
CGN Regular
- Location
- West Coast
The pieces go back together neatly. I can check again when I get home tonight. 3 pieces in total, bolt, bolt roller piece and a small little sliver from the underside.
Mr Wolverine
CGN Regular
- Location
- Manitoba. Canada
As this has been brought up on a public forum I feel I should respond here.
Quote:
It was just the hands up in the air " not our problem" type response that left a sour taste. Wolverine has been amazing to me up till now so I'm not sure what to think.
Here at Wolverine Supplies we have grown over the years but we pride ourselves on still been a family business with high values. We are human and sometimes we slip up. We made an error, with hindsight, I admit we should have handled this better, that is why we ask anybody who feels they have a problem to contact us.
We are not the importer of Norinco’s, this is the reply we received back from the importer:
"Unfortunately when a firearm is modified/tuned/repaired or disassembled in any way by a third party, other than our qualified gunsmith at our authorized depot, the warranty is automatically void.
At this moment we do not have any bolt available for sale to offer to the customer in case he wished to get one. We have a whole bunch of parts on back order in which include the bolts, with no ETA from the manufacturer."
It is fairly normal when a gun fails for the firearm manufacture to blame the ammo manufacture and vice versa, or to look for ways to say the warranty is void.
Here at Wolverine Supplies we pride ourselves on standing behind what we sell, on this occasion we will offer, at our expense, a used GI M14 bolt for the customer to have fitted to his firearm. If “Merovingian” would like to send us an e-mail we will make this happen.
Quote:
It was just the hands up in the air " not our problem" type response that left a sour taste. Wolverine has been amazing to me up till now so I'm not sure what to think.
Here at Wolverine Supplies we have grown over the years but we pride ourselves on still been a family business with high values. We are human and sometimes we slip up. We made an error, with hindsight, I admit we should have handled this better, that is why we ask anybody who feels they have a problem to contact us.
We are not the importer of Norinco’s, this is the reply we received back from the importer:
"Unfortunately when a firearm is modified/tuned/repaired or disassembled in any way by a third party, other than our qualified gunsmith at our authorized depot, the warranty is automatically void.
At this moment we do not have any bolt available for sale to offer to the customer in case he wished to get one. We have a whole bunch of parts on back order in which include the bolts, with no ETA from the manufacturer."
It is fairly normal when a gun fails for the firearm manufacture to blame the ammo manufacture and vice versa, or to look for ways to say the warranty is void.
Here at Wolverine Supplies we pride ourselves on standing behind what we sell, on this occasion we will offer, at our expense, a used GI M14 bolt for the customer to have fitted to his firearm. If “Merovingian” would like to send us an e-mail we will make this happen.
In this picture you see the darker edges around the lighter grey center. This was a crack where the lube had already soaked in, from too heavy of recoil from too heavy a bullet or too hot of round for this action.
So now its the sellers fault because you have been shooting a bullet that is known to be too heavy for this action on this modified gun. Get 2 bolts your going to need it.
So now its the sellers fault because you have been shooting a bullet that is known to be too heavy for this action on this modified gun. Get 2 bolts your going to need it.
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Mr.Wolverine, I can attest to your reply as being common in most every business when warranty comes into play.
My Motorcycle manufacture of choice is the same way...
But, their responce has been either a flat out No Warranty because you ( meaning I ) tampered with something or they (other motorcycles of the same family) all do that or some other lame excuse.
I find it refreshing the business owner actually steps up to the plate and speaks to the situation rather than burry their head in the sand.
Makes me wanna go out and buy something from you guys even though I have nothing on the radar at the moment.
Best Regards,
Rob
Merovingian
CGN Regular
- Location
- West Coast
Bolt break was completely grey with no signs of oil on the interior of the break, it's been kept in a plastic bag after the break and has slowly been soaking up oil as I didn't clean the bolt after it happened.
I did alot of asking around including gunsmiths specializing in M14/M305's and mentioned i wanted to shoot Federal Factory ammo, 168 SMK's. I was informed that these should be fine since Federal match isn't loaded very hot.
Merovingian
CGN Regular
- Location
- West Coast
Thanks so much John, I appreciate the gesture. I will email you shortly.
Useless info. Hopefully in jest.
I have had my Norinco M-14 (yup, says that on the side, not M305) for what seems like about 14 years now. It performs wonderfully, just like my Norinco pistols. Sorry to see you had a bolt f,up. I have shot reloads and Hornady boxed without issue. I hope you get your rifle up and running again soon, as they are great fun to shoot.
Pax+Caritas
CGN Regular
Thank you Mr. Hipwell. I am pleased to see a positive outcome for the OP, thanks to you.
However, should the rest of us newbies be concerned, at least for our safety?
I could not remember exactly what the manual had to say about ammunition for this rifle, so I went back to re-read it. It indicates that this rifle is designed for standard factory military 7.62 NATO ammunition with harder primers which are less likely to suffer from a slam fire. The manual explains that civilian ammunition with more sensitive primers increase the risk of primer detonation when the bolt slams forward, "slam fire". Could this type of failure be related to a "slam fire"?
What should we look for during cleanings, etc...? Will there be any warning stress cracks, or do these things just go "crack" all at once? The OP said he had his rifle looked over by a gunsmith, who did not identify any issues. It leaves me wondering whether I should just go find a new bolt now for mine to preempt any potential problems, or just close my eyes tighter when I pull the trigger.
Thanks for any feedback.
EDIT - I pulled my M305 out of lockup to look at the action. I notice that when you manually cycle the bolt back, that at about the half-way point, something (hammer?) inside the rifle causes the bolt to move laterally (like a small hammer from left to right (viewed from the shooter's position) so that the right lug "hits" the lug socket in the operating rod. Is that normal, or could that stress the lug in ways it was not designed for?
Thanks again.
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Mr Wolverine
CGN Regular
- Location
- Manitoba. Canada
I have extremely limited “trigger time” with any Norino products. What I have experienced is a wide range of quality, from very good to extremely poor, I am not certain that all these products came out of the same factory and this is over an extremely long time period. I certainly can’t stick my neck out and advise you to do anything contrary to what the manufacture advises. Commercial primers are normally softer than military ones and problems have occurred in many different military firearms when commercial ammo is used, this is usually blamed on the floating firing pin and/or a “high” primer. Certainly over the years I have found commercial ammo with no flash holes and others with no powder, so anything can happen, there has been more than one firearm fail (Hence the requirement for shooting glasses) under mysterious circumstances, was it a part failure or faulty ammo? Often no one can be sure. Based on my experience I will only hunt dangerous game with ammo that I have personally loaded because that is the only ammo that I will stake my life on. I am sure there are many here that have opened cases of modern military ammo and seen the odd primer in sideways or upside down, that always fills me with confidence!
The other point is lubrication, the vast majority of customer guns we see are to dry, I don’t believe you can over lube a gun, just keep oil out of the barrel. Dry guns will have accelerated wear, this can lead to a premature parts failure. I have no idea if that is applicable in this case.
As for your description on operating the action on your rifle, I think what you describe is normal, but difficult for me to be certain without having the rifle in my hands.
With the bolt failure on the gun in question, I will let others speculate as to the cause, faulty ammo, metal failure or a combination, who knows, at least no one was hurt and no major damage was done.
Hard to be sure from a photo but dark colour on a piece of fractured steel typically means a flaw in the metal. Don't know anything about how the Norinco bolt is manufactured but there are a couple of dark patches on the interior of the fracture and a long dark patch at the top which looks like a crack was there prior to the failure. I would not necessarily say Norinco therefor bad here. All manufacturers have these sorts of problems on occasion. Regardless 150 rounds of 168 should not fail a sound bolt.
