Hi folks...I bought a nice looking Fred K Williams hammer sxs. The barrels seem tight and sounds like a bell when u hold barrel and tap side.... a nice dong no clump noise so i know the soldering is tight. However...with some confusion...the seller has been firing regular 2 3/4 lead shells ( modern ) thru it without a problem. BUT....the problem is he found out himself by looking at the markings when trying to date it for me that it appears to be 1887 to 1896 and NOT Nitro Proofed. No bulges...no out of the ordinary problems...everything works great just a bit loose on the hook that needs to be welded and filed down to make tight again. The other issue is im not sure if its damascus or laminated or twist as theres no pattern left if there was any. it has been re-blued but appears a bit shiny almost like shiny tinfoil blued which might sound odd. So with that all said......how the hell do i find out what type of metal it is. The seller was and is sure that its plain steel. Also the proof marks show Birmingham Proof House mark...a 14 over 1 mark infront of both barrels even though its 12 gauge...and a CHOKE stamp with a diamond and a C in it. other than that no other markings. the soldered strip on top says Fred K Williams London & Birmingham.
Fred K Williams SxS
- Thread starter Mac2017
- Start date
gunsaholic
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Winnipeg, Manitoba
You can take the forearm off and find a small portion of bare steel, or sand a small spot, and apply an acid to the metal and see if you can detect a pattern. Vinegar may work. If the barrels were re-blued at some point using the hot, caustic bluing method, that is a major no-no with old guns with soldered ribs. The caustic salts eats away the solder and the ribs/barrels can come loose over time. But from the shiny, tin foil type appearance you describe it almost sounds like it was cold blued. You should maybe post some pics. The gun was only proofed for black powder loads. Even if it had been nitro proofed, it should not have been fired with modern, off the shelf high pressure loads, including target loads. It sounds like the previous owner was a risk taker. The 14 over 1 stamping is likely the nominal bore size at the time it was made, indicating that it is 12 gauge with a fair degree of choke. Another possibility is that it started life as a 14 gauge and at some point the chambers were bored out to 12 gauge. Is there a number 12 inside that diamond with a "C"?
The '14' means that the original bore size at proof was 14 bore, ,690", much smaller than twelve gauge which is .729". It was quite common to finish twelve gauge bores undersized and proofed at 13/1 (.719) or even occasionally 13 (.710) but I have never seen an original twelve that was finished and proofed at 14 although some guns were made with tapered bores as a means of choke but that is a different subject. As previously mentioned, the gauge (12 in this case) was denoted in a diamond shaped stamp but this did not come into effect until 1887 and if this gun predates this the chamber size would not be noted.
Fourteen bore was a popular gauge in muzzleloading guns and was quite popular in the early days of breech loaders, pretty well fading out by 1900 although ammunition is still available in Europe today. A number of possible scenarios for this old girl......
Originally a 14 gauge pinfire ( or even muzzleloader) and subsequently converted to 12 gauge central fire using the original tubes. Not too likely as it would be very unlikely for anyone to spend the money to do this work on a common basic gun, they could buy new of this quality for the same money or less.
An original super tight 12 gauge. Never heard of an original twelve with fourteen gauge bores but never say never with old British guns!
A fourteen gauge that has been rechambered to 12 gauge to provide easier access to ammunition. If there is no proof markings for 12 then the work was done in North America and not reproofed as required by law in Britain and Europe. This is the most likely scenario and personally I wouldn't shoot it in this case as the chamber walls would be much thinner than in an original twelve and 100+ year old composite ( damascus, laminated, twist, etc) barrels and thin chamber walls in combination sounds risky, plus squeezing 12 gauge loads through a 14 gauge bore will significantly increase pressure and recoil. Proof laws are for the protection of the consumer but have never been required in Canada or USA and many self taught 'gunsmiths' alter guns here in ways that affect safety, based only on their judgement and with no consequences. J.
Fourteen bore was a popular gauge in muzzleloading guns and was quite popular in the early days of breech loaders, pretty well fading out by 1900 although ammunition is still available in Europe today. A number of possible scenarios for this old girl......
Originally a 14 gauge pinfire ( or even muzzleloader) and subsequently converted to 12 gauge central fire using the original tubes. Not too likely as it would be very unlikely for anyone to spend the money to do this work on a common basic gun, they could buy new of this quality for the same money or less.
An original super tight 12 gauge. Never heard of an original twelve with fourteen gauge bores but never say never with old British guns!
A fourteen gauge that has been rechambered to 12 gauge to provide easier access to ammunition. If there is no proof markings for 12 then the work was done in North America and not reproofed as required by law in Britain and Europe. This is the most likely scenario and personally I wouldn't shoot it in this case as the chamber walls would be much thinner than in an original twelve and 100+ year old composite ( damascus, laminated, twist, etc) barrels and thin chamber walls in combination sounds risky, plus squeezing 12 gauge loads through a 14 gauge bore will significantly increase pressure and recoil. Proof laws are for the protection of the consumer but have never been required in Canada or USA and many self taught 'gunsmiths' alter guns here in ways that affect safety, based only on their judgement and with no consequences. J.
gunsaholic
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Winnipeg, Manitoba
I had an old English gun a few years back that was 12 gauge stamped with 14 gauge bores. Talked to a couple of others on doublegun who also had old 12 gauge guns stamped with 14 bores. However, I could not be certain that the gun had not started life out as a 14 gauge so I sold the gun as a wall hanger with full disclosure to the possibility that the chambers had been enlarged at some point. In the case with the gun in this thread, one should also proceed with caution if continuing to shoot it.
With the exception of some french shotguns, the wall thickness of most 12 guage guns is about .15" at the breach. It would be easy to measure that thickness. I have run across some 10 and 12 guage doubles with much thicker barrels at the breach and built on receivers for at least one guage larger. (ie 12 guage on a 10 guage receiver or 10 guage on a 8 guage receiver)
cheers mooncoon
Thx for reply guys !!!! It has very tapered barrels and seems to be all original....the chambers seem kinda deep though which looks larger then a 2 3/4 shell i could be wrong. It looks as if the barrels start out the size of a quarter or loonie then down to almost a dime. Absolutely NO bad signs or damage on it nor are there any bulges but i am no expert on these guns. The shop dealer in Ontario the gentleman bought it from awhile ago said it takes 2 3/4 shells but unsure if he said fire BP only. Ever since the guy i had it from shot modern only and used it in skeet.
So.....got the barrel all cleaned up....i found out it is indeed twist steel. It has 2 defined lines very visible yet not raised and fingernail doesn't catch on it. Might take it to gunsmith to have it looked over once I'm done with it. The inside barrels are shiny as hell and no stains.
Your next trip out should be to Home Depot, where they have a nifty line in wall-hooks suitable for holding your shotgun.
Once it's there, please leave it there. It has had its day in the sun, and now needs a rest.
tac
Once it's there, please leave it there. It has had its day in the sun, and now needs a rest.
tac
gunsaholic
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Winnipeg, Manitoba
You have some serious safety issues that need to be checked out if you plan on shooting this gun. If the gun is the age it is (which will be on the older side), plus it has twist steel barrels for black powder proof only, it likely did not start out life with 2 3/4" chambers. I think either who measured the chambers was just guessing or they have been lengthened. Another factor leaning toward the chambers being possibly lengthened are the bright as hell shiny bores and reblued barrels. That is highly suspicious and kind of out of place on a gun this old. That, in my opinion, is leaning to the possibility that the bores have been honed out and chambers lengthened. Anytime you see bright shiny bores on a 100 year old plus gun one has to be cautious. For the bores to be that nice the gun would have seen little use. But the gun is not tight on the action so it has seen a fair bit of use. The overall condition of the gun should match the bores unless maybe it was stored in a very humid climate. Of course there is the slight possibility that the gun is original but that has to be determined by someone who really knows these old doubles. But as it is, things aren't adding up, especially for a gun from the black powder era having 2 3/4" chambers, bright shiny bores, reblued barrels and loose on the action. Many of these old damascus guns are being shot today with proper loads designed for them but only if the gun checks out safe. As already mentioned, I think you may have a gun that with all likelihood should be hung on the wall.
The 12 with a C in a diamond denotes standard 2 1/2" chamber at proof. Longer chambers are marked 12 with LC for long chamber, so if this gun is truly 2 3/4" now it has been lengthened in North America without benefit of reproof. A 12 guage chamber length guage is a simple way to check but another simple way is by using a close fitting dowel. If a previous owner was shooting standard 2 3/4" ammo in a damascus barrelled gun with undersized bores, originally made and proofed for 2 1/2", no nitro proof and with lengthened chambers he is either a gambler or he didn't know what he had and what the risks were. No responsible gunsmith would recommend shooting this gun with modern ammo. And low velocity or lighter shot charges such as some factory trap loads is no indication of the pressures of the ammo. J.
gunsaholic
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Winnipeg, Manitoba
That is correct and I forgot to mention that in my post. All indications are this gun has been messed with and not reproofed.
I think you mean 2 5/8" chambers which is the fired length of a roll crimped shell. I also think that the true dimensions of the chamber could be measured by plugging the barrel with a piece of cloth or paper towel, about 3 1/2" or a bit more from the breach and filling the chamber with paraffin wax. Put a string in the cavity before pouring, in case the wax breaks during removal. Just knock the wax out with a ram rod. I also think the barrels need to be measured with a good dial or digital caliper to get more accurate measurements than the diameter of a quarter or some other coin. The muzzles of the gun should be I think thicker than .020" and thicker than .025 would be preferable.
I would agree with having the gun checked by a gunsmith is good advice, the problem is finding a gunsmith with any experience with antique guns as opposed to simply categorically condemning all laminated barrels or all barrels that are pre 1900. In a sense, whether the barrels have been reamed smooth or not and whether the chambers have been lengthened or not is immaterial; what is important is what is the measured and accurate thickness of the barrels as they are now and how does that compared to minimum safe barrel thickness for barrels of that age and construction. I have no idea where you might find such a number although comparing the dimensions with other unaltered a proofed barrels of that age and guage would be a good alternative.
Finally I would not shoot modern factory ammunition out of the gun, even though it may have been done in the past. Black powder loads would be much safer and handloaded smokeless loads under about 7000 psi for 12 guage guns might be acceptable. I did try loading one smokeless powder down to about 4000 psi (or LUP can't remember) but I got too much unburned powder left in the barrels and had to up the charge a small amount ---based on published tables
A final thought is that it would be good to see some good photos of the gun and particularly one looking down on the breach end of the barrels so that would could get an idea of just how much the barrels do taper in at the front of the chamber
cheers mooncoon
Thx everyone for awesome info!!!!! Yes the barrels have age and some markings in them but they are clean looking and I do not believe they have been blued. There is some pitting on outside of barrel so I'm not quite sure.....but I do plan on taking this from a 12 gauge down to a 20 gauge and I do only plan onvshooting black powder ONLY with brass shells but once it's been checked out by a qualified gunsmith. Nothing apperas to be altered on it except for a few spots inside the trigger assembly where it looks like some springs were welded or repaired at some point. It is an English made gun so the quality seems to be pretty durable. When people talk about sleeving a shotgun is that something I can do with this and exactly what is it. Does it go down whole gun barrel or just the chambers. There's no staining anywhere so I believe barrels are in good condition but regardless I'm with out a doubt having it checked out. I think by lowering the shell to a 20 gauge should reduce the stresses even more I would assume.
Londonshooter
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- SW Ontario
Would be interested in what you learn about sleeving a 12 ga to 20 in Canada or elsewhere for that matter. Better bet would be to continue its life as a low pressure 12 provided smith says you're fine with the pertinent measurements.
Here's what Diggory has to say: https://www.vintageguns.co.uk/articles/barrel-lining/
Here's what Diggory has to say: https://www.vintageguns.co.uk/articles/barrel-lining/
Outside of low pressure 12ga shells and leaving it as found - if barrel thickness is adequate - and preferable IMO.
A possible alternative is to install 20 ga sleeves, say 10 inches long, and make into a 20ga without the weight of full length sleeves.
I shoot a 16ga chamber sleeved to 20 ga and it is super
.
12ga to 20 ga adapters are made/sold and seem to work.
10 inch sleeves would reinforce the barrels in the higher pressure area.
Just a suggestion.
A possible alternative is to install 20 ga sleeves, say 10 inches long, and make into a 20ga without the weight of full length sleeves.
I shoot a 16ga chamber sleeved to 20 ga and it is super
.
12ga to 20 ga adapters are made/sold and seem to work.
10 inch sleeves would reinforce the barrels in the higher pressure area.
Just a suggestion.
That's excellent information folks thx ! I definitely will be thinking on the 10 inch sleeves. It's now fully sanded to 320 grit and will be dunked tomorrow in acid and bluing to pull back the twist look. I feel as if I should drop it down a gauge though. Just to be completely safe if a gunsmith says so.
