Which caliber for general woods use and wildlife protection

Why not the M1A from Norinco in the shorty version? You could leave it as is or swap out the stock for a pistol grip and collapsible stock a la "AR" style. Plus, with the aftermarket mags, you could get 10 rounds of .308 into them legally
 
Hondatech said:
There's XCR-M pistol magazines that'll get you 10 rounds of 308 or similar parent cases in a BCL102
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Perfect - I think that's the only viable option that's come up in the thread so far that's close to the OP's criteria: Lightweight black rifle (presumably magazine fed, greater than 5-rds), yet still reasonable for grizzlies.

As for which specific chambering, I'd go 338 Federal. If you're okay with the performance compromise, then 308 would probably be enough.
 
Melnibonean said:
Why not the M1A from Norinco in the shorty version? You could leave it as is or swap out the stock for a pistol grip and collapsible stock a la "AR" style. Plus, with the aftermarket mags, you could get 10 rounds of .308 into them legally
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I like these rifles, but even the short ones are relatively heavy. The OP wants something suitable for small-statured shooters.
 
G.Mitchell said:
We do have them in our area. Last year a problem grizzly was caught and relocated less than 2km from our place...
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Well you need to go up a level, there is just so much that can fit in an ar15 mag. You'll need to consider the bcl102, xcr 10 round mags if 5 rounds is a problem for you.
 
The .308 M17s that is just coming on the market should be a good option, although a big jump in price from a BCL-102. Should be less than ATRS Modern Hunter pricing. Takes AR10 mags and, as a bullpup, the weight is close to your body. The only thing I'd be worried about is that the LOP is too long for smaller shooters. I almost bought a Keltec RFB but I don't trust the odd ejection system in a dicey situation.
 
Frankly, I wouldn't bet my life, or the lives of my family on any calibre that fits into a "short AR" action where Grizzlies, or potentially p*ssed of black bear sows are involved. For that matter, I wouldn't bet my life on 308 in that application either. Picking a gun for any criteria other than terminal effectiveness when the possibility of a grizzly attack is part of the discussion is potentially deadly, just not for the bear. Don't get me wrong, I love the AR platform, and I think they're great for 2 legged threats of the fur-less variety, but big critters with bad tempers aren't that. Similarly, the 7.62 x39 - I used to hike with an AK - but never in grizzly country. Again, it's a great 'bad dude' calibre, which was more of a concern where I was hiking (grow op country) but it isn't bear attack medicine.

My .02
 
In 2008 I went grizzly hunting in northern BC with my father. At the time I didn't have any rifles of my own and my father had only one 300 WM (that he was going to use) and one 308 Win. And a 1-4x20 scoped 458 WM...I took the 458 instead of the 308! I was glad to be packing that 458 as we climbed up a mountainside from the lake where we'd already seen 5 grizzlies.

Once we got within 150 yards of a nice grizzly my father took the first shot with his 300WM with 180gr Partitions and the bear stood up to look around with a bullet hole in him. I tagged him with the 458 500gr soft nose and he dropped instantly and rolled down the hill.

The point of the story is: if I was going looking for grizzlies I would take something at least as big as a 300 Win Mag, which I now own. In brush country or if I wasn't actively hunting, I'd take my 7-lb open sight 9.3x62. That said, a 308 Win or a 338 Federal is a better option than any handgun calibre! But I still want to build a 9.3x62 M1 Garand...
 
so you want a big punch but in a small package?

Nothing is a good fit for your criteria. You are either stuck with a small frame ar15 style rifle with cartridges that lack punch or penetration, or you have to step up to a heavy larger framed rifle that would shoot more capable rounds.

An ar15 style rifle is not what you need for protection. Unless you are worried about the Russians invading Grand Prairie.

What is the best solution? Surprisingly bear spray and a good understanding of predator behavior. Firearms are surprisingly not the most effective way of dealing with large predators such as bears. If you really want a firearm, get a lever action or bolt action in a better suited caliber.
 
Or a slug equipped shotgun. Having seen a couple griz move up close (bluff charges) the thought that you would be able to exploit more than five rounds in the event of a charge is naive at best. And honestly, if weight is of concern do you really want to pack a big mag and optic? If it's doing double duty as a plinking or deer rifle that's something else.


X2 l what k Thomas said - understanding bear behaviours is your best defense. Failing that, there's a reason the people who are bear specialists that I work with on a daily basis carry an 870 and not a carbine.
 
In my opinion, slugs may not penetrate well enough to ensure immediate incapacitation of a large animal. There's a good reason why African professional hunters carry a big bore bolt action for backing up their clients. Now we aren't dealing with Cape Buffalo kind of tough with a grizzly but I've had 12 gauge foster slugs fail to penetrate clear through a whitetail on an angled shot. If you need to shoot a charging grizzly, there is a lot of bone and muscle to get through. I trust my 9.3 more than my 870 but that's just me.

Maybe we should not have turned this into a grizzly defense thread but the OP did mention grizzlies :-D.
 
I'd agree, but a slug equipped m4 is a lot closer to the sporting rifle aspirations (in terms of function and weight) of the OP and arguably better suited to "general woods use" than a classic African double.

That being said, I'd love to see what happens when a coyote runs into 2 barrels worth of .375 H&H.


What were we talking about again? : )
 
rifleman762 said:
In my opinion, slugs may not penetrate well enough to ensure immediate incapacitation of a large animal. There's a good reason why African professional hunters carry a big bore bolt action for backing up their clients. Now we aren't dealing with Cape Buffalo kind of tough with a grizzly but I've had 12 gauge foster slugs fail to penetrate clear through a whitetail on an angled shot. If you need to shoot a charging grizzly, there is a lot of bone and muscle to get through. I trust my 9.3 more than my 870 but that's just me.

Maybe we should not have turned this into a grizzly defense thread but the OP did mention grizzlies :-D.
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Foster slugs won't penetrate properly, Federal DP's or Brenneke's will. I know a guy who killed a Grizz with a 375 H&H - it nearly killed him when it ran him over. According to the folks who carted him out of the bush, his shot was nearly instantly lethal, it took the better part of six months for him to get back to work. Not a chance I'd want to take.
 
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