223 vs 30WCF for hunting
- Thread starter MiG25
- Start date
...
Good to see some of us can stay on the topic!
Can't disagree with your logic, a 30-30 is a proven killer of deer and bigger stuff at those ranges!
Should have specified I'm in Quebec...my bad.
Anyway...243Win with 100gr pills, low recoil, plenty of hammer and range for deer, lightest I'd personally go on the WT around here, they get big enough.
I don't think buying a $1000 deer rifle with the justification of nickel and dime ammo is the best approach.
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canadaman30
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Far from the City
Is there a difference between hunting and real hunting?...
Here’s my take on it, worth exactly what you paid for it.
After killing more than a few big game animals with a 22 centerfire, and seeing more than a few killed with a 22 centerfire, I have come to the conclusion that given an appropriate bullet (and with even having shot a few with bullets that most would consider inappropriate), the 22cf is a highly underrated cartridge when it comes to deer sized game.
If the apocalypse hit, and I had to choose a single rifle with which to feed my family and defend them against intruders and rampant wildlife up to and including Siberian Sabertooth Snow Tigers, it would unquestionably be a 223 spun at least 1:9, stoked with 75 Amax/ELD or a mono of some flavour over a 30-30. Reason being, a fast twisted rifle will generate more rpm, which results in faster bullet upset. Faster bullet upset results in greater soft tissue damage.
Most any factory 30-30 will be twisted slow, and lob slowly spinning bullets out there. A fast spun 22cf is going to absolutely result in faster kills. Any mono is going to give great straight line penetration on a soft target, and is going to be easier to place there once the ranges get longer than it would be with a slow moving ping pong ball.
The not so little 4x4 whitetail (well over 200lbs) my 14 year old daughter laced with a 50gr gmx at 177 yards this fall showed 16+ inches of penetration down the middle of the spinal column, chewing up vertebrae as it went. “Daddy, I’m getting cold. Can I just shoot him in the throat?” (Deer was square facing us trying to figure out what we were.) that one went straight down.
Last year, all the kids shot deer with the 50gr gmx. All deer were shot with the same presentation, quartering in, at 101 yards. All deer died within 20 yards of each other, and that included the one that dropped at the shot and bounced. The GF shot a buck in the same spot, with the same angle, with her 7/08 and a 139 SST. That bullet got less penetration, and similar tissue damage, but that deer ran an extra 20 yards.
I remain convinced that velocity plays a bigger part in the death of animals than we give it credit for. I see a higher percentage of bang flops with fast moving cartridges and softer bullets than with comparatively slow cartridges and harder bullets. The exception to that being the 45tsx whipped out at 3800+ fps muzzle velocity. That one tends to flat smack stuff to the earth....
But, use whatever flips your skirt up, be it a 458, or a Hornet. Just use whatever you are going to use within its limitations. And that goes by bullet as well. Bullets matter more than headstamps, and not all bullets are created equal.
After killing more than a few big game animals with a 22 centerfire, and seeing more than a few killed with a 22 centerfire, I have come to the conclusion that given an appropriate bullet (and with even having shot a few with bullets that most would consider inappropriate), the 22cf is a highly underrated cartridge when it comes to deer sized game.
If the apocalypse hit, and I had to choose a single rifle with which to feed my family and defend them against intruders and rampant wildlife up to and including Siberian Sabertooth Snow Tigers, it would unquestionably be a 223 spun at least 1:9, stoked with 75 Amax/ELD or a mono of some flavour over a 30-30. Reason being, a fast twisted rifle will generate more rpm, which results in faster bullet upset. Faster bullet upset results in greater soft tissue damage.
Most any factory 30-30 will be twisted slow, and lob slowly spinning bullets out there. A fast spun 22cf is going to absolutely result in faster kills. Any mono is going to give great straight line penetration on a soft target, and is going to be easier to place there once the ranges get longer than it would be with a slow moving ping pong ball.
The not so little 4x4 whitetail (well over 200lbs) my 14 year old daughter laced with a 50gr gmx at 177 yards this fall showed 16+ inches of penetration down the middle of the spinal column, chewing up vertebrae as it went. “Daddy, I’m getting cold. Can I just shoot him in the throat?” (Deer was square facing us trying to figure out what we were.) that one went straight down.
Last year, all the kids shot deer with the 50gr gmx. All deer were shot with the same presentation, quartering in, at 101 yards. All deer died within 20 yards of each other, and that included the one that dropped at the shot and bounced. The GF shot a buck in the same spot, with the same angle, with her 7/08 and a 139 SST. That bullet got less penetration, and similar tissue damage, but that deer ran an extra 20 yards.
I remain convinced that velocity plays a bigger part in the death of animals than we give it credit for. I see a higher percentage of bang flops with fast moving cartridges and softer bullets than with comparatively slow cartridges and harder bullets. The exception to that being the 45tsx whipped out at 3800+ fps muzzle velocity. That one tends to flat smack stuff to the earth....
But, use whatever flips your skirt up, be it a 458, or a Hornet. Just use whatever you are going to use within its limitations. And that goes by bullet as well. Bullets matter more than headstamps, and not all bullets are created equal.
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BigUglyMan
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- New Scotland
A comparison between a stoutly constructed monometal bullet and a highly frangible one isn't a fair one. You could run 45 caliber pistol bullets out of a 460 Weatherby and all you would get it a loud noise and an ghastly flesh would. Would you try to argue that the 460 Weatherby is incapable of killing medium-sized game? Or would you say that the bullet choice was woefully inadequate? The other extreme applies perfectly as well. A 223 with a 50gr Barnes Varmint Grenade is a dreadfully bad combination for anything bigger than foxes but that does not mean that the 223 is incapable of cleanly harvesting medium-sized game. The truth lies in the middle. Under some circumstances the 223 is a fine deer round. In my opinion, that would be in the forests of the West Coast, Washington and Oregon shooting blacktails. In fact, I think it would be a dandy little deer rifle on Haida Gwaii. Would I want it on the open prairies of Saskatchewan and Alberta for big Mulie bucks in November? Wouldn't be my first choice by a wide margin.
Velocity can play a part in quick kills, but a complete understanding of the mechanics of death are required. Death is caused by exsanguination (bleeding out) or CNS disruption. Given all the givens, the more damage you can do to the major components of the vascular system, the faster an animal will bleed out. So all things being equal, a bullet that does massive damage to the heart and aorta will cause lethal blood loss faster. High velocity tends to cause more dramatic expansion as compared to a similar bullet at a lower velocity. More dramatic expansion can (assuming adequate penetration) cause more damage to the vital organs which causes faster blood loss.
As it relates to disruption of the CNS, velocity plays only a peripheral role. Increased velocity flattens the trajectory which results in easier hits to the relatively small targets that make up the CNS (brain and spine forward of the point of the shoulder). All the bullet needs to do is penetrate to the brain or spinal column and the result is nearly instantaneous death. But it doesn't need to be going fast to achieve this. You could kill a deer just as quickly by driving a knitting needle into it's brain using your bare hands (though that would raise some disturbing questions about a person's state of mind). Velocity only aids in disruption of the CNS when you are using a frangible bullet and miss the target but a lucky piece of shrapnel severs the spinal column. This is not skill or a benefit of any aspect of the system, it's just dumb luck that cannot be relied upon or given any weight in the argument.
So to compare apples to apples, if your GF had been using a 139gr GMX I don't believe that you would have been able to tell a bit of difference between her deer and that of your daughter, given ideal shot placement which severs the spinal column. Nor does a high impact velocity guarantee better results. In the end, it's all about using a properly constructed bullet and putting the said bullet in the proper place with enough retained energy to ensure adequate penetration of the vitals.
Sounds so easy when you boil off all the extraneous broth!
- Location
- In the shadows of the Rockies
Terminal Ballistics Research's take on the 223 as a game round -
...it is very important to try and avoid major shoulder bones to aid bullet penetration and ensure that wounding occurs exclusively within vitals.
...As a medium game cartridge, the .223 is under powered if fast killing is to be expected with ordinary chest shots. The one exception is when using tumbling FMJ ammunition which completely and utterly changes the performance of this cartridge on medium game.
...The tumbling 55 grain bullet is truly violent and fast killing and is the most effective medium game hunting load for the .223. Exit wounds on medium game are often as wide as 3” (see photo in the article).
...Apart from the use of FMJ ammunition, hunters using the .223 on medium game will achieve best results with neck and head shots. Typical sporting loads with conventional soft point ammunition can penetrate through the chest walls of medium game but kills are always slow if the CNS is not destroyed. The .223 does not have the power to initiate hydrostatic shock.
https://www.ballisticstudies.com/Knowledgebase/.223+Remington.html
It's TBR's contention that sufficient hydrostatic shock causes a spike in the animal's blood pressure that puts it into an instant coma, and death happens shortly afterwards from blood loss.
...it is very important to try and avoid major shoulder bones to aid bullet penetration and ensure that wounding occurs exclusively within vitals.
...As a medium game cartridge, the .223 is under powered if fast killing is to be expected with ordinary chest shots. The one exception is when using tumbling FMJ ammunition which completely and utterly changes the performance of this cartridge on medium game.
...The tumbling 55 grain bullet is truly violent and fast killing and is the most effective medium game hunting load for the .223. Exit wounds on medium game are often as wide as 3” (see photo in the article).
...Apart from the use of FMJ ammunition, hunters using the .223 on medium game will achieve best results with neck and head shots. Typical sporting loads with conventional soft point ammunition can penetrate through the chest walls of medium game but kills are always slow if the CNS is not destroyed. The .223 does not have the power to initiate hydrostatic shock.
https://www.ballisticstudies.com/Knowledgebase/.223+Remington.html
It's TBR's contention that sufficient hydrostatic shock causes a spike in the animal's blood pressure that puts it into an instant coma, and death happens shortly afterwards from blood loss.
While I agree with some of your thoughts, I do have to point out that exsanguination and CNS disruption are not the only things that will cause a living animal to die after a trauma. While we may think that those are the reasons, it probably down plays the effect of shock on vital organs.
When I was a kid hunting with my dad he spotted a some deer wayyyyy off in the distance and we made a sneak on them. Running out of cover and having been spotted by a couple of them, he got me set up over a stump and pointed out one that was broadside, but looking at us. He instructed me to hold ‘about 6” over the hair line and let one go’. Being as I figured I knew better than him and they didn’t look that far, I laid the crosshairs just into the hair and let drive. That buck leapt into the air and ran for the timber. The others made their way off after that as well.
Making our way over he found a couple of hairs on the ground, but no blood. We followed the tracks into the timber and wiggled around in the trees for a ways until he found one drop of blood. And the deer, laying there dead.
That little 100 grain pill from my 6mm had passed just inside the skin, but below the breast bone under the heart. Did not enter the chest cavity. One drop of blood. However, the tip of that bucks heart was as hard as a rock, and bruised a bit. Neither did that buck bleed out, nor was his cns disrupted. Shock killed him.
We are all a product of our experience, and that one tends to indicate to me that shock plays a bigger role than we think.
However, you seem to have missed my point in the comparison earlier. A 7/08 with a deer bullet had similar tissue trauma as did a 223 with a deer bullet. And they both resulted in dead deer.
When I was a kid hunting with my dad he spotted a some deer wayyyyy off in the distance and we made a sneak on them. Running out of cover and having been spotted by a couple of them, he got me set up over a stump and pointed out one that was broadside, but looking at us. He instructed me to hold ‘about 6” over the hair line and let one go’. Being as I figured I knew better than him and they didn’t look that far, I laid the crosshairs just into the hair and let drive. That buck leapt into the air and ran for the timber. The others made their way off after that as well.
Making our way over he found a couple of hairs on the ground, but no blood. We followed the tracks into the timber and wiggled around in the trees for a ways until he found one drop of blood. And the deer, laying there dead.
That little 100 grain pill from my 6mm had passed just inside the skin, but below the breast bone under the heart. Did not enter the chest cavity. One drop of blood. However, the tip of that bucks heart was as hard as a rock, and bruised a bit. Neither did that buck bleed out, nor was his cns disrupted. Shock killed him.
We are all a product of our experience, and that one tends to indicate to me that shock plays a bigger role than we think.
However, you seem to have missed my point in the comparison earlier. A 7/08 with a deer bullet had similar tissue trauma as did a 223 with a deer bullet. And they both resulted in dead deer.
This seems like a reasonable premise. After all, we have an individual account written roughly a century ago by a single individual who, when faced with his unique set of experiences and with what was available to him at the time, chose a .22cal centerfire to shoot tigers. Fast forward to the present day, with its completely different set of values regarding the clean killing of game, not to mention a century's worth of development and improvement to ammunition and bullet technology. Of course this tale is still relevant to today's hunter; why wouldn't it be?
After all, Bell shot elephants with a 7mm; sure, it was a different world then, and the man himself was almost supernaturally proficient at his game...but of course that doesn't change the fact that he did it, and it worked, so it should darn well be a valid choice today.
The then-world-record grizzly shot by Bella Twin with a rimfire is obvious proof that this obsession with centerfire cartridges is actually just a passing fad; if a native girl with a single shot .22 can kill a grizzly, well, today's sportsman shouldn't take the risk of being accused of "overkill" by using a larger cartridge.
People, please: "can do it" and "should do it" are two entirely different things.
After all, Bell shot elephants with a 7mm; sure, it was a different world then, and the man himself was almost supernaturally proficient at his game...but of course that doesn't change the fact that he did it, and it worked, so it should darn well be a valid choice today.
The then-world-record grizzly shot by Bella Twin with a rimfire is obvious proof that this obsession with centerfire cartridges is actually just a passing fad; if a native girl with a single shot .22 can kill a grizzly, well, today's sportsman shouldn't take the risk of being accused of "overkill" by using a larger cartridge.
People, please: "can do it" and "should do it" are two entirely different things.
Ironic, given your sig line John.......
I do find it humorous to read all the hand wringing and wailing about 22 cf’s being used on deer here, when animals up to and including elk are killed every year in the US by hunters at ranges that many would find astonishing.
I do think that there is a fairly big disconnect on cgn though between hunters who own a rifle - typified by the ‘shoot a half a box at the range to line ‘er up before de’r season starts tomarrow’, and shooters who hunt - the guys who buy/build/sell rifles multiple times a year, who buy bullets by the thousand and USE them, and who are open to trying new things and tend to read more about other shooters who hunt and their findings. Of course, this is simplifying a bunch, but you get the idea.
There have been great strides in bullet technology, and bullets continue to improve. In the information age that we enjoy now, people have the ability to research things and read about the findings of thousands of other people at the tip of their fingers at any time of day... That ANYONE can question the efficiency of a properly constructed bullet and its effect on a deer in this day and age surprises me.
Deer are not bullet proof. Bullets matter more than headstamps. Choose your bullet based on the velocity you are going to run it at, for your given application. While it IS rocket science, it is available knowledge for anyone who wants to find it. If not, well, feel free to cling to your beliefs. I’m ok with that, as long as your actions don’t impact me.
I do find it humorous to read all the hand wringing and wailing about 22 cf’s being used on deer here, when animals up to and including elk are killed every year in the US by hunters at ranges that many would find astonishing.
I do think that there is a fairly big disconnect on cgn though between hunters who own a rifle - typified by the ‘shoot a half a box at the range to line ‘er up before de’r season starts tomarrow’, and shooters who hunt - the guys who buy/build/sell rifles multiple times a year, who buy bullets by the thousand and USE them, and who are open to trying new things and tend to read more about other shooters who hunt and their findings. Of course, this is simplifying a bunch, but you get the idea.
There have been great strides in bullet technology, and bullets continue to improve. In the information age that we enjoy now, people have the ability to research things and read about the findings of thousands of other people at the tip of their fingers at any time of day... That ANYONE can question the efficiency of a properly constructed bullet and its effect on a deer in this day and age surprises me.
Deer are not bullet proof. Bullets matter more than headstamps. Choose your bullet based on the velocity you are going to run it at, for your given application. While it IS rocket science, it is available knowledge for anyone who wants to find it. If not, well, feel free to cling to your beliefs. I’m ok with that, as long as your actions don’t impact me.
- Location
- In the shadows of the Rockies
TBR's take on the 30-30 -
...The Western cartridge company promoted the .30-30 as a potent cartridge by showing pictures of Grizzly bear on ammunition packets, alluding to its prowess on large game.
...The .30-30 cartridge is now more appropriately appreciated for close range hunting of medium game while the lever action rifles that house the .30-30 are still considered by many hunters, to be the ultimate in portability.
...The fastest killing chest shot with the .30-30, using either factory ammunition or hand loads is one that strikes slightly forwards of the front leg, at or close to the intersection of the scapula and humerus bones. A shot in this area destroys the autonomous plexus, a major nerve center of the body, causing instant death, shot after shot.
...The .30-30 is an adequately clean killing cartridge of medium game, up to 150kg (330lb) at close ranges, particularly inside 75 yards, for reasons of shot placement, not reduced wounding capacity. On heavier animals, the .30-30 may produce adequate penetration but is not nearly as fast killing as a higher velocity 30 caliber cartridge or wider bore.
...Again, it must be re-iterated that among fans of the .30-30, the greatest benefit of the .30-30 is the compact lever action rifles.
https://www.ballisticstudies.com/Knowledgebase/.30-30+Winchester++.30+WCF.html
...The Western cartridge company promoted the .30-30 as a potent cartridge by showing pictures of Grizzly bear on ammunition packets, alluding to its prowess on large game.
...The .30-30 cartridge is now more appropriately appreciated for close range hunting of medium game while the lever action rifles that house the .30-30 are still considered by many hunters, to be the ultimate in portability.
...The fastest killing chest shot with the .30-30, using either factory ammunition or hand loads is one that strikes slightly forwards of the front leg, at or close to the intersection of the scapula and humerus bones. A shot in this area destroys the autonomous plexus, a major nerve center of the body, causing instant death, shot after shot.
...The .30-30 is an adequately clean killing cartridge of medium game, up to 150kg (330lb) at close ranges, particularly inside 75 yards, for reasons of shot placement, not reduced wounding capacity. On heavier animals, the .30-30 may produce adequate penetration but is not nearly as fast killing as a higher velocity 30 caliber cartridge or wider bore.
...Again, it must be re-iterated that among fans of the .30-30, the greatest benefit of the .30-30 is the compact lever action rifles.
https://www.ballisticstudies.com/Knowledgebase/.30-30+Winchester++.30+WCF.html
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On a similar vein, when the topic of 'Survival guns" comes up we often hear about collapsible 22LR or shotguns being ideal as you can carry lots of ammo (22LR) or be very versatile (various shotgun ammo for large and small game) but I always felt a .223 with a detachable magazine would be ideal. Load a few 10 round magazines with reduced loads for grouse and rabbits etc, and a few 10 round magazines with big game bullets for deer, bear or even moose in your survival situation.
You can carry plenty of ammo compared to shotgun ammo, and have much further range than both 22LR or shotgun, without sacrificing the versatility ability on large/small game.
LOL, touche, point well made.
I am indeed set in my ways when it comes to some (many) things, and personally find no appeal in seeing how small a bullet I can get away with for any particular purpose. Also, I certainly agree with you that the advancements in bullet tech make the use of those little pills less worrisome than it once was. Certainly, enough "shooters who hunt"...an excellent way to phrase it...have shown that this can be done.
I'm not trying to tell anyone not to do this...as long as they actually can do it. We have an abundance of threads started here on CGN by posters who ask questions that make it abundantly clear that they are painfully inexperienced (not directing this at the OP in this thread!) and are seeking basic information. When one of those threads appears, scrolling down a handful of posts will usually immerse you in a maze of charts/graphs/catalog quotes and discussions of high-BC, VLD, and a host of other ideas that really don't help out a newbie.
I have been engaged in a running discussion with a co-worker that has stretched on for months; it's literally become a standing joke on the jobsite. He insists that his .22-250 (..."a Winchester, I think...") has, on numerous occasions when directed by his matchless skill, slain elk and moose at 800 yards...a feat made possible by the fact that it has "no trajectory". He just aims dead on, and uses only head shots to ensure a clean kill.
When I call him on it, he cites YouTube and CGN as the source of the information he uses.
When a new driver asks how to engage the parking brake, it isn't necessary or desirable to provide him with a schematic of the entire drivetrain of the car...nor to explain how to execute a hand-brake turn. The proper answer is "just pull that lever up". When he has progressed to a point where he no longer needs to ask questions like that, then he can progress to performance driving. Same thing goes for shooting and hunting; make sure the guy has learned to walk before you give him a ballistics chart and tell him to run.
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Both will kill deer but I'd take the 30/30 as it was meant to kill deer and has proven itself. The 223 is a civilian version of a military compromise. Personally for deer I'd start at the 257 diameter even though the 6 mm works fine for deer
"...As a medium game cartridge, the .223 is under powered if fast killing is to be expected with ordinary chest shots. The one exception is when using tumbling FMJ ammunition which completely and utterly changes the performance of this cartridge on medium game.
...The tumbling 55 grain bullet is truly violent and fast killing and is the most effective medium game hunting load for the .223. Exit wounds on medium game are often as wide as 3” (see photo in the article)."
I'm curious if anyone here has ever experienced the the " legendary tumbling" 55 grain FMJ out of the .223
Personally I have never seen it on the half dozen coyotes I've shot with PMC 55 gain FMJ rounds.
Not saying it doesn't exist but the wound channels I've seen were neat little entry and exit.
Maybe 30 rounds full auto into jungle foliage creates the tumbler but as far as it tumbling on impact with the target no.
There's also the story of the "boar tooth cut " where troops filed a divot into the muzzle of the M-16 to create the effect.
Not knowing how much truth that one carries either.
Drawing conclusions from this fellows website offers a snapshot of bullet performance based on one or two kills.
Your results may indeed vary.
...The tumbling 55 grain bullet is truly violent and fast killing and is the most effective medium game hunting load for the .223. Exit wounds on medium game are often as wide as 3” (see photo in the article)."
I'm curious if anyone here has ever experienced the the " legendary tumbling" 55 grain FMJ out of the .223
Personally I have never seen it on the half dozen coyotes I've shot with PMC 55 gain FMJ rounds.
Not saying it doesn't exist but the wound channels I've seen were neat little entry and exit.
Maybe 30 rounds full auto into jungle foliage creates the tumbler but as far as it tumbling on impact with the target no.
There's also the story of the "boar tooth cut " where troops filed a divot into the muzzle of the M-16 to create the effect.
Not knowing how much truth that one carries either.
Drawing conclusions from this fellows website offers a snapshot of bullet performance based on one or two kills.
Your results may indeed vary.
