Army Will Test Out 3 More Sub-Guns For Security Units

Thomas D'Arcy McGee

Thomas D'Arcy McGee

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Army Will Test Out 3 More Sub-Guns For Security Units


Military.com

|18 Jun 2018

|By Matthew Cox


U.S. Army weapons officials have expanded the list of submachine gun-style weapons the service plans to test to find a low-profile weapon for security personnel.

Project Manager Soldier Weapons announced recently that it planned to spend $428,480 to award sole-source contracts to 10 gun makers for "highly-concealable" subcompact weapons for an upcoming evaluation, according to a June 6 award announcement.

The Army will now add three more companies to the list, bringing the total up to $472,480, according to a June 15 announcement.

Here's a breakdown of the additional awards:

-- Heckler and Koch Defense Inc., for its UMP9 subcompact weapon. Amount: $10,850.

-- Angstadt Arms Corporation for its UDP-9 subcompact weapon. Amount: $15,950.

-- Noveske Corporation for its Noveske subcompact weapon. Amount: $17,200.

Currently personal security detail personnel use M4 carbines and pistols, but Army officials now say these units need an more concealable, but still lethal alternative, according to the original award announcement.

Without such a weapon, PSD military personnel will be left "with a capability gap which can result in increased warfighter casualties and jeopardize the success of the U.S. mission," the announcement adds.

The initial 10 awards will go to Beretta USA, Colt Manufacturing Company, CMMG Inc., CZ-USA, Sig Sauer and five other small arms makers for pistol-caliber weapons "capable of engaging threat personnel with a high volume of lethal and accurate fires at close range with minimal collateral damage," according the original announcement.

Matthew Cox can be reached at matthew.cox@military.com.
 
Definitely a toy buy for playing around with.

The only thing that fits the bill is the B&T MP9 for low profile concealable machine pistol. It is what it is designed for. All others are full size cops guns or range toys.

If I want a full size SMG as a PDW, I am going to get a 300 Blk out instead.
 
greentips said:
Definitely a toy buy for playing around with.

The only thing that fits the bill is the B&T MP9 for low profile concealable machine pistol. It is what it is designed for. All others are full size cops guns or range toys.

If I want a full size SMG as a PDW, I am going to get a 300 Blk out instead.
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I've heard so much about 300 black out but I don't understand the attraction

To me it looks kinda like a 7.62x39 bullet shoehorned into a cut down 223 case

I've heard its perfect for suppressor use (not something us north of the border need worry about) but what other advantages are there? Low recoil?
 
Sniffer said:
I've heard so much about 300 black out but I don't understand the attraction

To me it looks kinda like a 7.62x39 bullet shoehorned into a cut down 223 case

I've heard its perfect for suppressor use (not something us north of the border need worry about) but what other advantages are there? Low recoil?
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This is not for us.


From a mil standpoint the only difference is the barrel all other parts including magazines interchange with 556 components. Yes the ballistics is almost identical to 7.62x39. And yes you have max performance at relatively short barrel guns and it offers great suppressed options especially suppressed.
 
greentips said:
Definitely a toy buy for playing around with.

The only thing that fits the bill is the B&T MP9 for low profile concealable machine pistol. It is what it is designed for. All others are full size cops guns or range toys.

If I want a full size SMG as a PDW, I am going to get a 300 Blk out instead.
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The specification-insistence on a 9mm chambering is a bit confusing to me....
 
cyclone said:
The specification-insistence on a 9mm chambering is a bit confusing to me....
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Logistics. 9mm is the nato round of choice for handgun calibers.

But I agree a stubby 300blk like the sig mcx rattler would be primo for this size group they are looking at.
 
JungerJager said:
H&K will get the nod, more time in that arena, and from what I have heard on a Military level no one is super pumped on AR9's.
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Is this angstadts first contract? I've read their name before but not on gov contracts

I suspect if it were between these 3 the h&k will win because of their manufacturing capability. And odds are the ump with its polymer chassis will be able to undercut the rivals on price as well. Esepcially since the bulk of the r&d cost of it has been paid off.
 
Sniffer said:
I've heard so much about 300 black out but I don't understand the attraction

To me it looks kinda like a 7.62x39 bullet shoehorned into a cut down 223 case

I've heard its perfect for suppressor use (not something us north of the border need worry about) but what other advantages are there? Low recoil?
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I don't think suppression is a big deal here, but it is a nice to have.

As an ultra short low profile PDW, 300blk can penetrate soft vest out of a PDW length out to 150m-ish with a 9" barrel. I also have more faith with 300 Blk in penetrating more car doors and brick walls out of a short barrel than 5.56. If the fight turns ugly, a rifle round is a rifle round, it goes much farther.

9mm is useless against softvest, and the US doesn't have any 9mm AP. Everyone wears soft armour, especially in the military.

I don't know what close protection they are talking about, but if this is war time, I would expect close protection of important command groups against enemy Spestnaz, especially in this new hybrid war thing. Personally I think in the military world the minimum for small arms is the ability defeat soft armour, because they should expect soft armour from near peer enemies.
 
greentips said:
I don't think suppression is a big deal here, but it is a nice to have.

As an ultra short low profile PDW, 300blk can penetrate soft vest out of a PDW length out to 150m-ish with a 9" barrel. I also have more faith with 300 Blk in penetrating more car doors and brick walls out of a short barrel than 5.56. If the fight turns ugly, a rifle round is a rifle round, it goes much farther.

9mm is useless against softvest, and the US doesn't have any 9mm AP. Everyone wears soft armour, especially in the military.

I don't know what close protection they are talking about, but if this is war time, I would expect close protection of important command groups against enemy Spestnaz, especially in this new hybrid war thing. Personally I think in the military world the minimum for small arms is the ability defeat soft armour, because they should expect soft armour from near peer enemies.
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Close protection as in body guards and CP teams. We carry many wpns. And guess what lots of rounds in close is the objective not sustained fire fights against "spestnaz"....

You ever shoot car doors with 5.56 or 9mm? No issues what so ever.
 
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It will untimely fall back on the capabilities of the manufacture, while both Noveske and Angstadt make quality product they could not come close to H&K on the manufacturing, production and maintenance side. Plus there seems to be more modularity to the UMP platform, without having to purchase more complete uppers.
 
Am I the only one who is wondering why no MP7 in 4.6 x 30? In these missions, multiple rounds on target are the call. Before everyone starts spreading their vast knowledge of their operational experience with the 4.6 and how it lacks stopping power, let's look at the advantages;

-Less than half the recoil of a 9mm
-extremely accurate and user "shootable"
-very compact design
-proven reliability
-very low muzzle blast
-can be suppressed successfully
-high round capacity (40 rd mags)
-in use with US Forces who have combat experience with it
-.........and........penetrates soft body armour & some hard level 3A armours

I know the wounding ability of the round is lacking but this could be made up for with good shot placement and multiple rounds on target.

Rich
 
Rich LPS said:
Am I the only one who is wondering why no MP7 in 4.6 x 30? In these missions, multiple rounds on target are the call. Before everyone starts spreading their vast knowledge of their operational experience with the 4.6 and how it lacks stopping power, let's look at the advantages;

-Less than half the recoil of a 9mm Not an issue
-extremely accurate and user "shootable"Like most quality guns like an MP5K
-very compact designMP5K is nearly identical in dimensions
-proven reliabilityLike an MP5K
-very low muzzle blastLike an MP5K
-can be suppressed successfullyLike an MP5K
-high round capacity (40 rd mags) Ten more rounds than an MP5 but needs them to be effective
-in use with US Forces who have combat experience with itLike the MP5K
-.........and........penetrates soft body armour & some hard level 3A armoursWith special ammo 9mm can do the same on soft armour.

I know the wounding ability of the round is lacking but this could be made up for with good shot placement and multiple rounds on target.

Rich
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The MP5K is nearly the same size and weight but with a much longer track record and chambered in a common calibre for both ease of logisitics and cross compatibility with handguns. More rounds to be "effective" means a solid 22LR rifle with a 100 round magazine would fit the bill even better. Less recoil, less blast, simpler operation. It simply requires even more rounds on target to be effective..
 
AB_blaster said:
The MP5K is nearly the same size and weight but with a much longer track record and chambered in a common calibre for both ease of logisitics and cross compatibility with handguns. More rounds to be "effective" means a solid 22LR rifle with a 100 round magazine would fit the bill even better. Less recoil, less blast, simpler operation. It simply requires even more rounds on target to be effective..
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Ump9 is lighter than the mp5k no? And with a higher capacity magazine iirc.
 
AB_blaster said:
Not sure. Simply comparing one HK product to the other.
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Disregard. Did some reading. They are all withing 500g of each other for weight. The ump is also a 30 round max from the factory.

As for the 22lr I see where you are going but I'm not sure it's a fair comparo since you can never hold a 22lr to the same reliability standards as 9mm or the unobtanium 4.6x30mm

As for Rich LPS initial question. I think the biggest answer is the same as the previous guy who asked why not P90. Logistics. They got tons of 9mm. and it will still do business. Perhaps cost of weapon is another thing maybe the ump is substantially cheaper than the mp7.

Now what really surprises me is that Sig didn't poke their nose in with the MPX.
 
It's not particularly difficult to design a 9mm FMJ bullet to defeat soft armor, even without going to an exotic configuration like the Russian 7N21 and 7N31 rounds.

One example being the Swedish M/39B round, which is just regular lead core 9mm ball with an unusually thick jacket. Its reportedly tough to stop with soft armor despite not being designed as AP.
 
Haha I was waiting for the comparison to 22 LR....please see the Swiss Army testing of 5.7 x 28 & 4.6 x 30. If anyone still believes this US Internet fable that these PDW calibre's are equivelant to 22 LR, some research is needed. I echo the the post that yes, reliability standards between 22 LR and the modern PDW caliber's are not even in the same ball park. (US Naval Special Warfare Units are not dumping MP7's to take Ruger 10/22's into battle with 100 round drum mags!)

Usually I think of the big logistical machine and having the plentiful supply chain of 9mm around. I'm not sure that this is the driving force behind this RFP as this is not going to be a general issued item to the masses, but only selected to a few of those who will be issued.
I admittedly have HK disease and love the MP5, but after having extensive experience with both MP5 and MP7, I'd go with MP7. Double the range and no issues what-so-ever with penetrating soft and some hard armors. Very accurate at double the distance as well, much more modern design with bolt hold open on the last round. Developing 9mm AP might be a solution but there might be over penatration issues and also what is the energy transfer into the target of 9mm AP? Will it be any better than one of the modern PDW calibre's if they tumble...hopefully...as designed?

Rich
 
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Rich LPS said:
Haha I was waiting for the comparison to 22 LR....please see the Swiss Army testing of 5.7 x 28 & 4.6 x 30. If anyone still believes this US Internet fable that these PDW calibre's are equivelant to 22 LR, some research is needed. I echo the the post that yes, reliability standards between 22 LR and the modern PDW caliber's are not even in the same ball park. (US Naval Special Warfare Units are not dumping MP7's to take Ruger 10/22's into battle with 100 round drum mags!)

Usually I think of the big logistical machine and having the plentiful supply chain of 9mm around. I'm not sure that this is the driving force behind this RFP as this is not going to be a general issued item to the masses, but only selected to a few of those who will be issued.
I admittedly have HK disease and love the MP5, but after having extensive experience with both MP5 and MP7, I'd go with MP7. Double the range and no issues what-so-ever with penetrating soft and some hard armors. Very accurate at double the distance as well, much more modern design with bolt hold open on the last round. Developing 9mm AP might be a solution but there might be over penatration issues and also what is the energy transfer into the target of 9mm AP? Will it be any better than one of the modern PDW calibre's if they tumble...hopefully...as designed?

Rich
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I wasn't comparing ballistics between 22lr and 4.6x33. I was drawing the parallel between high capacity and the need for many rounds on target to be effective. It seemed your driving factor for the MP7 was both capacity and ease of use. One could argue the 22lr is more controllable and could arguably carry more rounds. I don't think the effective range is of importance as the idea was for close protection which would put a heavy value on concealment and short range effectiveness.
 
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