"Slam Fire": Just doesn't seem right.

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nitro-express

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My shotgun experience has mostly been pump shotguns, and most of those have been Remington 870's. I've recently become interested in Cowboy Action Shooting (CAS) and my main shotgun is a '97 Winchester. The '97 is well known for it's "Slam Fire" feature, very effective during WWI, trench warfare.

I've shot pump shotguns a lot, my muscle memory is trained to get and keep my trigger finger off the trigger until I want to shoot. When I pull the trigger I expect a bang, if I don't, I expect silence, the gun is not supposed to fire unless I pull the trigger.

Part of the cleaning, maintenance and adjustment of a '97 is setting up the trigger stop, to ensure the bolt is sufficiently closed before the shotgun fires, when used in "Slam Fire" mode.

After doing some dry fire testing, it was time to live test. I loaded up a few shells and concentrated on holding down the trigger. For me there is no joy in this, every time it fires, it scares me. I don't think that I would ever be able to do it under a high stress situation, just seems wrong to me.

I've dabbled with a Model 12 as well, it also has the slam fire feature.

Then I got an Ithaca 37, also a slam fire designed trigger. Later production removed that feature. The one I bought was a later production model, slam fire had been disabled. I had examined the trigger, knew it was not capable of slam fire, but decided to test it anyways. That was an enlightening experience. Shoot and pump while holding the trigger down, the shotgun does not fire, the trigger is locked in the rearward position and the shotgun is all jammed up. Nice, NOT. Then it all stated to make sense. If a trigger does not have or is not designed to have a disconnect mechanism, reliability wise, it is better to have the shotgun slam fire, than have it jam up, especially in a combat situation. Ithaca, when they removed the slam fire capability, just allowed the hammer to follow the bolt into battery, they removed the pin that would hold the hammer in the cocked position until the bolt had moved forward enough for the shotgun to safely fire. They did not add the disconnect feature, at least not initially. They may have re-designed the trigger later on, never researched that.

Now I understood what was happening, if the trigger did not have a disconnect feature, you had 2 choices. Make the shotgun into a pipe gun, or let it jam up. If you hold the trigger down on a disconnect trigger, the disconnect holds the hammer back, releasing the trigger re-engages the sear then lets the hammer down on the sear, pulling the trigger fires the gun.

I'd prefer a slam fire to a jam, but it still scares the crap out of me. No sir, don't like a gun that goes bang on its own.

IMO a better design would be to have a selector, to switch between slam fire and trigger disconnect. Much like the selector on a full auto, to switch between full and semi. I believe correct term for this feature, what I refer to a select fire, is today called a "fully semi-automatic". If I had the money I'd get a fully semi-automatic rifle built in 45 Long Colt and use a P17 Enfield action as the base. And of course it would be slam fire as well. It would like like a Sten on steroids, which was an open bolt design, correctly referred to as a "fully slam fired automatic". Sorry, just couldn't help myself.
 
Have to agree at the risk of being called a Fudd. IIRC the noted guns were not intentionally designed to "slam fire" (popular but inaccurate description of what happens) they were just made (designed) to leave the user the responsibility of releasing the trigger between shots. I hunt and shoot models 12, Ithaca 37's and it is all muscle memory to release the trigger between shots. In fact I have to really try to hold the trigger between shots on these guns. Legend has it that WW1 dough boys and prohibition lawmen used the holding trigger technique with good results. I could see inexperienced shooters have a "issue" with these types of trigger arrangements. Good analytical post.

Darryl
 
I've never tried to slam fire a model 97 or 12 (or anything else). And having shot thousands upon thousands of rounds through double barrel guns and semi's, I highly doubt that I'd even be able to force myself to hold the trigger in since my muscles are trained to let go of the trigger at the shot to prepare for the next shot.
 
I grew up with ithaca 37s. I admit when flying targets are close together i try the slam fire. Sometimes it works sometimes it doesnt. Thats why they have a 3rd shot right
I prefer to have a so called slam fire capability instead of a jamming gun
 
nitro-express said:
My shotgun experience has mostly been pump shotguns, and most of those have been Remington 870's. I've recently become interested in Cowboy Action Shooting (CAS) and my main shotgun is a '97 Winchester. The '97 is well known for it's "Slam Fire" feature, very effective during WWI, trench warfare.

I've shot pump shotguns a lot, my muscle memory is trained to get and keep my trigger finger off the trigger until I want to shoot. When I pull the trigger I expect a bang, if I don't, I expect silence, the gun is not supposed to fire unless I pull the trigger.

Part of the cleaning, maintenance and adjustment of a '97 is setting up the trigger stop, to ensure the bolt is sufficiently closed before the shotgun fires, when used in "Slam Fire" mode.

After doing some dry fire testing, it was time to live test. I loaded up a few shells and concentrated on holding down the trigger. For me there is no joy in this, every time it fires, it scares me. I don't think that I would ever be able to do it under a high stress situation, just seems wrong to me.

I've dabbled with a Model 12 as well, it also has the slam fire feature.

Then I got an Ithaca 37, also a slam fire designed trigger. Later production removed that feature. The one I bought was a later production model, slam fire had been disabled. I had examined the trigger, knew it was not capable of slam fire, but decided to test it anyways. That was an enlightening experience. Shoot and pump while holding the trigger down, the shotgun does not fire, the trigger is locked in the rearward position and the shotgun is all jammed up. Nice, NOT. Then it all stated to make sense. If a trigger does not have or is not designed to have a disconnect mechanism, reliability wise, it is better to have the shotgun slam fire, than have it jam up, especially in a combat situation. Ithaca, when they removed the slam fire capability, just allowed the hammer to follow the bolt into battery, they removed the pin that would hold the hammer in the cocked position until the bolt had moved forward enough for the shotgun to safely fire. They did not add the disconnect feature, at least not initially. They may have re-designed the trigger later on, never researched that.

Now I understood what was happening, if the trigger did not have a disconnect feature, you had 2 choices. Make the shotgun into a pipe gun, or let it jam up. If you hold the trigger down on a disconnect trigger, the disconnect holds the hammer back, releasing the trigger re-engages the sear then lets the hammer down on the sear, pulling the trigger fires the gun.

I'd prefer a slam fire to a jam, but it still scares the crap out of me. No sir, don't like a gun that goes bang on its own.

IMO a better design would be to have a selector, to switch between slam fire and trigger disconnect. Much like the selector on a full auto, to switch between full and semi. I believe correct term for this feature, what I refer to a select fire, is today called a "fully semi-automatic". If I had the money I'd get a fully semi-automatic rifle built in 45 Long Colt and use a P17 Enfield action as the base. And of course it would be slam fire as well. It would like like a Sten on steroids, which was an open bolt design, correctly referred to as a "fully slam fired automatic". Sorry, just couldn't help myself.
Click to expand...

Maybe I am not understanding something about your post, but lets be clear about one important thing. Slam Firing pump shot guns do not go bang on their own. You have to be holding the trigger down while cycling the action. This is a deliberate act of the operator to have the firearm shoot as soon as the cycling action is complete.

Slam firing shotguns are basically a full auto trigger mechanism in a manually cycling firearm. As soon as you release the trigger the gun will stop firing.

If cycling your shotgun without holding the trigger causes your shotgun to fire then you probably have a broken shotgun.

Also note that slam firing means different things to different people.

Slam firing means:
1) a manually operated firearm, typically shotgun, that will fire as soon as the action is in battery when cycled with the trigger pressed.
2) Any firearm, usually semi-automatic, that may inadvertently fire a round during chambering. This is usually as a result of either a high primer or a bolt design that does not include a firing pin return spring which allows a loose firing pin to drift forward and strike the primer during chambering.

Some firearms designs are known to be vulnerable to slam firing, such as the AR 15. The design on its own is sound, and if the firearm is slam firing, then something, usually the ammo, is the issue.
 
Falconflyer said:
I've never tried to slam fire a model 97 or 12 (or anything else). And having shot thousands upon thousands of rounds through double barrel guns and semi's, I highly doubt that I'd even be able to force myself to hold the trigger in since my muscles are trained to let go of the trigger at the shot to prepare for the next shot.
Click to expand...

With utmost respect, unless you have a learning disability, you are wrong.

First, muscles don't get trained. Nerves/neurons get 'trained', and they get trained and re-trained over and over and over again. Your brain is continuously learning new things, and directing your neurons accordingly. I am quite confident that as an intelligent adult, you could learn to slam fire a shotgun in probably 10 seconds or less if you set your mind to it. Sure it would feel weird at first, like all new things do. Ever thrown a dart or a ball with your non dominate hand? Slam firing is kind of like that. But its really not that complicated, and when you appreciate how the firearm was designed to work, you will realize quite quickly that its as normal as firing a gun left handed.

Do you think you could ever manage to fire a full auto? Slam fire is basically the same trigger manipulation as a full auto, you just manually cycle the action.

The hardest part of slam firing is holding the proper point of aim while cycling, and re-orienting your expectations of when the firearm will fire from a trigger press with your dominant index finger to the end of forward motion of your non dominant hand on slide.

If you are right handed, firing a slam firing shot gun is kind of like throwing jabs with your left hand. Remember that this gun designed for fast, accurate-enough shooting, equally suited to duck hunting as it was to Close Quarter Battle. It is not a tool marksman.
 
nitro-express said:
I've shot pump shotguns a lot, my muscle memory is trained to get and keep my trigger finger off the trigger until I want to shoot. When I pull the trigger I expect a bang, if I don't, I expect silence, the gun is not supposed to fire unless I pull the trigger.

I'd prefer a slam fire to a jam, but it still scares the crap out of me. No sir, don't like a gun that goes bang on its own.
Click to expand...

Two points
- slam fire guns don't fire unless you are pulling the trigger...
- slam fires don't go bang on their own... it requires a finger pulling the trigger...

and a third personal observation... accuracy falls off when you slam fire... even at close range it is easy to miss...
 
Cameron SS said:
With utmost respect, unless you have a learning disability, you are wrong.

First, muscles don't get trained. Nerves/neurons get 'trained', and they get trained and re-trained over and over and over again. Your brain is continuously learning new things, and directing your neurons accordingly. I am quite confident that as an intelligent adult, you could learn to slam fire a shotgun in probably 10 seconds or less if you set your mind to it. Sure it would feel weird at first, like all new things do. Ever thrown a dart or a ball with your non dominate hand? Slam firing is kind of like that. But its really not that complicated, and when you appreciate how the firearm was designed to work, you will realize quite quickly that its as normal as firing a gun left handed.

Do you think you could ever manage to fire a full auto? Slam fire is basically the same trigger manipulation as a full auto, you just manually cycle the action.

The hardest part of slam firing is holding the proper point of aim while cycling, and re-orienting your expectations of when the firearm will fire from a trigger press with your dominant index finger to the end of forward motion of your non dominant hand on slide.

If you are right handed, firing a slam firing shot gun is kind of like throwing jabs with your left hand. Remember that this gun designed for fast, accurate-enough shooting, equally suited to duck hunting as it was to Close Quarter Battle. It is not a tool marksman.
Click to expand...


Obviously one can train themselves to do just about anything, and that's exactly what I've done over the last few decades of competition shooting. I think most people probably knew what I meant but thanks for at least alluding that I'm an intelligent adult! :)
 
nitro-express said:
My shotgun experience has mostly been pump shotguns, and most of those have been Remington 870's. I've recently become interested in Cowboy Action Shooting (CAS) and my main shotgun is a '97 Winchester. The '97 is well known for it's "Slam Fire" feature, very effective during WWI, trench warfare.

I've shot pump shotguns a lot, my muscle memory is trained to get and keep my trigger finger off the trigger until I want to shoot. When I pull the trigger I expect a bang, if I don't, I expect silence, the gun is not supposed to fire unless I pull the trigger.

Part of the cleaning, maintenance and adjustment of a '97 is setting up the trigger stop, to ensure the bolt is sufficiently closed before the shotgun fires, when used in "Slam Fire" mode.

After doing some dry fire testing, it was time to live test. I loaded up a few shells and concentrated on holding down the trigger. For me there is no joy in this, every time it fires, it scares me. I don't think that I would ever be able to do it under a high stress situation, just seems wrong to me.

I've dabbled with a Model 12 as well, it also has the slam fire feature.

Then I got an Ithaca 37, also a slam fire designed trigger. Later production removed that feature. The one I bought was a later production model, slam fire had been disabled. I had examined the trigger, knew it was not capable of slam fire, but decided to test it anyways. That was an enlightening experience. Shoot and pump while holding the trigger down, the shotgun does not fire, the trigger is locked in the rearward position and the shotgun is all jammed up. Nice, NOT. Then it all stated to make sense. If a trigger does not have or is not designed to have a disconnect mechanism, reliability wise, it is better to have the shotgun slam fire, than have it jam up, especially in a combat situation. Ithaca, when they removed the slam fire capability, just allowed the hammer to follow the bolt into battery, they removed the pin that would hold the hammer in the cocked position until the bolt had moved forward enough for the shotgun to safely fire. They did not add the disconnect feature, at least not initially. They may have re-designed the trigger later on, never researched that.

Now I understood what was happening, if the trigger did not have a disconnect feature, you had 2 choices. Make the shotgun into a pipe gun, or let it jam up. If you hold the trigger down on a disconnect trigger, the disconnect holds the hammer back, releasing the trigger re-engages the sear then lets the hammer down on the sear, pulling the trigger fires the gun.

I'd prefer a slam fire to a jam, but it still scares the crap out of me. No sir, don't like a gun that goes bang on its own.

IMO a better design would be to have a selector, to switch between slam fire and trigger disconnect. Much like the selector on a full auto, to switch between full and semi. I believe correct term for this feature, what I refer to a select fire, is today called a "fully semi-automatic". If I had the money I'd get a fully semi-automatic rifle built in 45 Long Colt and use a P17 Enfield action as the base. And of course it would be slam fire as well. It would like like a Sten on steroids, which was an open bolt design, correctly referred to as a "fully slam fired automatic". Sorry, just couldn't help myself.
Click to expand...

Sounds like a personal problem to me.
A shooter is either familiar with his equipment or otherwise. There's a myriad of other shotguns that you can be more comfortable with.
Good luck to you.
 
My advice: don't develop the muscle memory of holding back the trigger. Its dangerous and can happen when you don't want it to. I have a relative who has a slam fire with Ithaca 37s every now and then and it scares everyone. If you find it hard to do, you learned to shoot correctly and safely. Its funny when you are screwing around, but it ends there for practical applications. Take that for what its worth...
 
I have own M12's since the late 1970's. Never once was I motivated to slam fire them. Mind you, I think rolling coal is idiotic as well, so what do I know.
 
With all the neurology chat aside, who cycles the action of a pump shotgun with their finger depressing the trigger? Slam firing is nothing but a waste of ammo and for those that have actually experience it, simply maintaining muzzle control is difficult. Looks cool on TV but impractical for hunting or personal defense from zombies...or whatever...
 
Ive found the only real issue with slam fire capable guns are for ppl new to them and wearing winter gloves. Ive handed my ithacas to literally 100s of new shooters and never once had an accidental firing upon closing.
While on the other hand running the skeet i see many new shooters not release a trigger on a ou. They always stare at the gun and wonder why it didnt go bang. Again gloves amplify this during the colder months
 
M12shooter said:
With all the neurology chat aside, who cycles the action of a pump shotgun with their finger depressing the trigger? Slam firing is nothing but a waste of ammo and for those that have actually experience it, simply maintaining muzzle control is difficult. Looks cool on TV but impractical for hunting or personal defense from zombies...or whatever...
Click to expand...

Impractical for hunting. Many people say that about semi autos and handguns.

Impractical for personal defense. I guess that's why no one living in trenches ever wanted one.

Zombies. Oh I see. This whole post was meant as a joke. :)

A slam fire is not for deliberate aimed shots. It is for putting as much lead in the air as possible in the shortest possible time, at a time when reliable semi auto shotguns were unheard of and incredibly expensive, or required excessive maintenance.

It has certainly been long replaced by better options, but it has its place in history.
 
I own several M37s and a few M87s.
This means I deal with three differing trigger functions.
"Slam fire" then the standard trigger and the interuppter trigger group. I have never really entertained the thought of modifying any of them and I wish to keep them in their factory state. Only a few times did I use the slam fire function, mostly to show others. It's great for showing novice shooters the reason of demonstrating the importance of trigger discipline and muzzle control.
 
Cameron SS said:
Impractical for hunting. Many people say that about semi autos and handguns.

Impractical for personal defense. I guess that's why no one living in trenches ever wanted one.

Zombies. Oh I see. This whole post was meant as a joke. :)

A slam fire is not for deliberate aimed shots. It is for putting as much lead in the air as possible in the shortest possible time, at a time when reliable semi auto shotguns were unheard of and incredibly expensive, or required excessive maintenance.

It has certainly been long replaced by better options, but it has its place in history.
Click to expand...

Gotcha, have fun with that....
 
Cameron SS said:
Impractical for hunting. Many people say that about semi autos and handguns.

Impractical for personal defense. I guess that's why no one living in trenches ever wanted one.

Zombies. Oh I see. This whole post was meant as a joke. :)

A slam fire is not for deliberate aimed shots. It is for putting as much lead in the air as possible in the shortest possible time, at a time when reliable semi auto shotguns were unheard of and incredibly expensive, or required excessive maintenance.

It has certainly been long replaced by better options, but it has its place in history.
Click to expand...

A good operator with a pump gun can shoot fast enough pulling the trigger to make the slightly faster slam fire process irrelevant. And those shots will be aimed aimed and effective.
 
I’ve seen a few close calls over the years on trap ranges when a shooter with no experience with model 12’s and little experience as a shooter period left smoking holes in the grass only inches from their toes while closing the pump handle to load the gun for their turn. I’ve shot my model 12’s a couple times to demonstrate the slam fire feature but for safety purposes only. I think it’s a very useless feature on a hunting or clay target shotgun to be honest and don’t miss the lack of it on the Browning reproductions.
 
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