Low recoiling 223

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AGrant580

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Hey fellas, I'm new to reloading and have loaded up a bunch of 223 with 19 grains of varget federal 205 primer, and 55 grain fmj bt. This load worked well in my SLR and would run in my buddies modern varmint but there was a lot of what's looks maybe half burnt powder all around the chamber and the upper... the load is for CQB so max distance of 50 yards the load was very accurate but super dirty. Is varget a slower burning powder and that is why there is powder in the upper and chamber area?? Should I change to a faster burning powder and what is a fast burning powder that will work well in an AR or most semi auto 223s?? And has anyone else had this problem??
Thanks for the input fellas.
 
I have done a lot of experimenting with low velocity AR ammo.

Some rifle are over -gassed, so a full pressure load really pounds the action. My Norinco AR is over gassed, so my ammo for it is down loaded.

Powder burns consistently at a given pressure range. Varget burns best at 50,000 to 70,000 psi. When you down load it the results are not reliable.

A good powder to work with is 4198. Load 10 each, in 0.5 gr increments, from 14 to 20 gr. Shoot 5 of each in both rifles, at a 50 yard target, and note if the actions cycles and the accuracy.

You should find a mild load that cycles and is accurate.
 
I suggest you buy some of the DA4198 form Canada Ammo. Cheap stuff, and fast powder, good for down loading.

As you start testing, the first load or two may not cycle the action. Then you will note a load that cycles sometimes. The next load would cycle 100%

The minimum load you would make in quantity is 1 grn more than the first load that cycled 100%. That makes sure you have 100% reliability.

The gas system of your rifle will determine how low you can go and still maintain accuracy and reliability. My Norc will shoot 55s at 2050 fps, and my NEA 14" at 2200 fps. This is a full 1000 fps less than full power. Like shooting a BB gun. Both group about 2" at 100 yards.
 
19grs Varget under a 55gr bullet would be approx 2200 fps / 24k PSI, and have a powder burn of only 74% when the bullet is inside the bore (18.7" brl) . Muzzle pressure is 5900PSI

Maybe look at IMR 4198/D4198 like Ganderite suggested. I shoot D4198 in my Ruger Scout 5.56 bolt action, with 55gr Hornady SP. 18.0grs did 2450 fps from my 16.1" brl. 97% powder burn and muzzle pressure of 7200psi so it should cycle the BCG on your semi
 
Thanks fellas :) I'm new to reloading.. Ganderite I should have picked your brain a little more at the last CQB event. thanks for all the info I will try the different powder for sure the load was 100% reliable in my SLR but as todbartell said yes there was unburnt powder in the upper thanks again fellas I will be buying some more powder and back to the drawing board lol Ganderite do you have a low recoiling recipe for a 308 my wife shoots and I was thinking about loading some 308 rounds and working up to a full load so she can get used to shooting a larger caliber rifle for PRS shooting? I have a bunch of 147 grain FMJ BT but was thinking about getting some 110 grain bullets then working up from there?? Thoughts??
Thanks again for all the info.
 
AGrant580 said:
Thanks fellas :) I'm new to reloading.. Ganderite I should have picked your brain a little more at the last CQB event. thanks for all the info I will try the different powder for sure the load was 100% reliable in my SLR but as todbartell said yes there was unburnt powder in the upper thanks again fellas I will be buying some more powder and back to the drawing board lol Ganderite do you have a low recoiling recipe for a 308 my wife shoots and I was thinking about loading some 308 rounds and working up to a full load so she can get used to shooting a larger caliber rifle for PRS shooting? I have a bunch of 147 grain FMJ BT but was thinking about getting some 110 grain bullets then working up from there?? Thoughts??
Thanks again for all the info.
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For your wife's 308, she will want accuracy as well as soft recoil.

My son started competing in target Rifle at age 10. I used the Sierra 125 gr pointed soft point. (The 130 gr Speer also works)

Make a survey of 4198 loads of 30 to 35 gr and see how they shoot/feel.

My son's rifle was very accurate with them, but he could only shoot to 600 yards. Not enough velocity for anything more.
 
Ganderite said:
I have done a lot of experimenting with low velocity AR ammo.

Some rifle are over -gassed, so a full pressure load really pounds the action. My Norinco AR is over gassed, so my ammo for it is down loaded.

Powder burns consistently at a given pressure range. Varget burns best at 50,000 to 70,000 psi. When you down load it the results are not reliable.

A good powder to work with is 4198. Load 10 each, in 0.5 gr increments, from 14 to 20 gr. Shoot 5 of each in both rifles, at a 50 yard target, and note if the actions cycles and the accuracy.

You should find a mild load that cycles and is accurate.
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Gassing and barrel length really do come into play. My accuracy load for .223 was developed for my Remington 78 back in the early 80 for ground hogs, and is a bit over max according to the data; 26.9 gr 4320 under 55gr HPBT (compressed load). While these gave a bit more felt recoil than factory stuff in the Remington; they gave me sub 1/2" groups at 100 yards, and no signs of over-pressure on either the cartridges or primers. I was not happy with the accuracy I was getting in the AR I built last year with Federal AE bulk (4.5" groups, huge fire-ball, and dirty action) I was ready to blame the rifle/barrel, but grabbed some of my varmint loads, and was surprised that it was incredibly soft shooting, shot sub 3/4" at 100 yards, and the fireball all but disappeared. Likewise, no signs of over-pressure.

I don't remember how I came to develop this load back in the day; but due to cost, I am tempted to try some DA4895; but am reluctant to change what is already working for me.

The Data for 4895 and 4320 is quote close in Hodgedon's reloading data; and according to Hodgedon's burn rate chart 4320 is only slightly faster than 4895

Question; how does 4895 meter; I am using an old-when-I-bought-it back in about 1975 Redding powder measure, and it meters 4320 very consistently; less than .1gr variation?
 
Meroh said:
Gassing and barrel length really do come into play. My accuracy load for .223 was developed for my Remington 78 back in the early 80 for ground hogs, and is a bit over max according to the data; 26.9 gr 4320 under 55gr HPBT (compressed load). While these gave a bit more felt recoil than factory stuff in the Remington; they gave me sub 1/2" groups at 100 yards, and no signs of over-pressure on either the cartridges or primers. I was not happy with the accuracy I was getting in the AR I built last year with Federal AE bulk (4.5" groups, huge fire-ball, and dirty action) I was ready to blame the rifle/barrel, but grabbed some of my varmint loads, and was surprised that it was incredibly soft shooting, shot sub 3/4" at 100 yards, and the fireball all but disappeared. Likewise, no signs of over-pressure.

I don't remember how I came to develop this load back in the day; but due to cost, I am tempted to try some DA4895; but am reluctant to change what is already working for me.

The Data for 4895 and 4320 is quote close in Hodgedon's reloading data; and according to Hodgedon's burn rate chart 4320 is only slightly faster than 4895

Question; how does 4895 meter; I am using an old-when-I-bought-it back in about 1975 Redding powder measure, and it meters 4320 very consistently; less than .1gr variation?
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I am not familiar with the Hodggon burn rate chart, but 4320 is SLOWER than 4895. It is similar to Varget. Maybe a tad slower.

4320 is a very fine extruded powder and meter very well. 4895 is not a large kernel, but does not meter quite as well as 4320.

If you have a powder and load that works, stay with it.

4320 is prone to speed variations from lot to lot, so buy it as 8 pounder, so your load does not have to be tweaked very often.

I used to do some R&D with IMR, and saw some big fluctuations in 4320 from lot to lot.
 
Ganderite said:
I am not familiar with the Hodggon burn rate chart, but 4320 is SLOWER than 4895. It is similar to Varget. Maybe a tad slower.

4320 is a very fine extruded powder and meter very well. 4895 is not a large kernel, but does not meter quite as well as 4320.

If you have a powder and load that works, stay with it.

4320 is prone to speed variations from lot to lot, so buy it as 8 pounder, so your load does not have to be tweaked very often.

I used to do some R&D with IMR, and saw some big fluctuations in 4320 from lot to lot.
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Here is the chart; just going by their info: https://www.hodgdon.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/burn-rate-color.pdf
 
Ganderite said:
Good chart, and it looks right to my eye. 4320 is SLOWER than 4895, and similar to Varget.

I don't see why you said "4320 is only slightly faster than 4895".
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I was reading the chart wrong. It says "relative burn rates from fastest to slowest; 4320 is #103 on the chart; 4895 is #91; I'm off work today with the flu; I'm a bit wonky.
 
Ganderite got it right, I think.

4198 would be a very good choice for a CQB AR rifle where one is looking for reduced recoil & velocity, but still need to maintain pressure for cycling the action and clean burn.
 
AGrant580 said:
Thanks fellas :) I'm new to reloading.. Ganderite I should have picked your brain a little more at the last CQB event. thanks for all the info I will try the different powder for sure the load was 100% reliable in my SLR but as todbartell said yes there was unburnt powder in the upper thanks again fellas I will be buying some more powder and back to the drawing board lol Ganderite do you have a low recoiling recipe for a 308 my wife shoots and I was thinking about loading some 308 rounds and working up to a full load so she can get used to shooting a larger caliber rifle for PRS shooting? I have a bunch of 147 grain FMJ BT but was thinking about getting some 110 grain bullets then working up from there?? Thoughts??
Thanks again for all the info.
Click to expand...

Following a Ganderite recommendation for a lighter load for my M305, I found that 30gr of IMR4895, under a 150gr flat based projectile, is an accurate load that reliably cycles the action.

It is easier on my shoulder and my wallet, and I suspect easier on the brass. Your wife might like this load- I sure do!
 
I agree with this. My 55 GR V-MAX loads for Varmit are loaded @ 24.3 and are flat to 150M at 2198 FPS. Mind you, these are for my specific coyote gun and have been developed for it.
Hitzy said:
19gr Varget is very light for 55gr pills.
You want to be up around 25gr-26gr.
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OttawaHunts said:
I agree with this. My 55 GR V-MAX loads for Varmit are loaded @ 24.3 and are flat to 150M at 2198 FPS. Mind you, these are for my specific coyote gun and have been developed for it.
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I guess some people forget to read what I was going for.... low recoiling 223 for CQB it only has to go 50 yards and be able to cycle the action on my AR or SLR.... I was just getting some unburnt powder when s friend tried my hand loads in his modern varmint.
 
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