Monolithic vs Lead Construction

[John Y Cannuck]

I'd like the posts above to have indications of how old the bullets were.
My first experience with Barnes sucked big time, and the animal required multiple shots to put down. The body cavity had plenty of petals, and the exit holes were all small.
I know for a fact this has changed, and current production is much better, so when I read a thread like this I wonder how much of the opinion is shaded by those early bullets.
Myself, I experiment periodically, but for the hunting I do, cast bullets, or old fashioned cup and core work dandy, as they have for me for near 50 years of hunting now. I might eat a tiny speck of lead now and then, or even pick some out from my teeth. 'taint killed me yet, and I have had lead levels tested, (for other reasons) they are normal.

 

[MTM]

Ttsx for me in all my guns now. Been using Barnes since the late 80s. The fouling is gone and they still work great. Not sure how you guys are recovering them though, I’ve only ever gotten one back. Oh, a 210 ttsx at 3450 is too much for mulies.

 

[woodlotowner]

John Y,

The Barnes and the Nosler in my picture were one year apart in 2004 and 2005. I should note also that the Barnes had virtually 100% weight retention, while the Nosler AccuBond was just under 80% retained. I know where the lead went. Can't say I am overly concerned about it myself, but at the time there were young family members eating a lot of venison too.

Anyway, regardless of the efficacy of any lead based bullet, I am now (and have been since 2005) strictly a monometal hunter on anything we intend to eat.

As for accuracy, I have found Barnes TSX and TTSX (same load data by the way) to be very accurate indeed.

 

[woodlotowner]

The Barnes site indicates minimum velocity at impact for reliable expansion of their bullets. I'm not sure I believe the lower limit, but at 3k+ in .277 they do a texbook performance apparently.

 

[track]

It is curious why there are reports (this one is not unique) of mono bullets not expanding. This was my concern when I made the switch. I actually had some ELD-X as back-up ammo last season. However, I found that even on a white-tail doe that was shot through the ribs and heart (not much resistance) I had impressive expansion with 6.5mm GMXs. I am happy that my loads worked because I do not want any lead in my meat. The reports that I read regarding lead in meat indicated that many of the pieces of lead were as small as a grain of pepper. Therefore, you may be eating it without knowing it.

My family name dates back to 1721 when they arrived to North America from France. I have no information of any family member dying from lead poisoning; except maybe during American Spanish War or the War of Independence, pun included. That would also include my mothers side of the family. My parents are both 83 years old and grew-up on lead-shot game. Is there a paranoia among hunters today regarding lead poisoning?

 

[rkm456]

Is there a paranoia among hunters today regarding lead poisoning?

I'm kind of perplexed on this one too.

 

[RRH.01]

Yup, or you're trying to limit meat/pelt damage. Shoot a mono and then a lead core of the same weight/caliber/velocity at a steel gong at distance and the impact sound generated is something even my deaf ears can pick up. The smack isn't there.

The sound on a gong has nothing to with a lack of energy. If the w/c/v are equal so is the energy.

 

[Dogleg]

Anti-gunners will take their wins where they get them. Going back, when they couldnt take the guns they took the full autos. Cant get the rifles, get the handguns severely restricted. Wave a ball point pen and get half the handguns. Cant get the semis and remaining handguns, attack the magazines. Cant get the mags, cut them in half. Cant get the last half attack the ammunition. Cant get that, attack the lead. Theyve flown various balloons over the years, including pipe dreams for things that didnt exist. Remember the “cop killer” catch phrase years ago? They lobbied to ban everything that pierce the dismal body armor of the day. That would be every rifle we own. Politics makes for strange bed fellows. Hook up with some enviromentalists and attack lead. Turn the rifle guys against the handgunners. Team up anti-hunters with Randy Brooks and you get state-wide lead bullet bans. You all know who he is, right? Strange bed fellows indeed.

 

[RRH.01]

My family name dates back to 1721 when they arrived to North America from France. I have no information of any family member dying from lead poisoning; except maybe during American Spanish War or the War of Independence, pun included. That would also include my mothers side of the family. My parents are both 83 years old and grew-up on lead-shot game. Is there a paranoia among hunters today regarding lead poisoning?

It isn’t that they are paranoid, I think they’re are becoming educated. Many don’t die directly because of it but there lives are changed in some way from it. Never any high blood pressure, joint/muscle pain, headaches, abdominal pains, etc, none of those could have come from lead cause grabpppys just fine damnammit, #### why is my nose bleeding again! Crazy that in those days remains were being tested for lead levels.

 

[todbartell]

I get the fart needles from lead in my meat

 

[CSI-WALLEYE]

My family name dates back to 1721 when they arrived to North America from France. I have no information of any family member dying from lead poisoning; except maybe during American Spanish War or the War of Independence, pun included. That would also include my mothers side of the family. My parents are both 83 years old and grew-up on lead-shot game. Is there a paranoia among hunters today regarding lead poisoning?

Does not have to kill you to have a negative effect on you physical or mental health.

 

[track]

Does not have to kill you to have a negative effect on you physical or mental health.

I believe that there are case-study reports from lead toxology, however it mostly relates to old gunshot wounds. I'm not aware of any study of hunters diagnosed with ill effects caused from lead shot animals. If you know of any study, please inform me.

 

[CSI-WALLEYE]

I believe that there are case-study reports from lead toxology, however it mostly relates to old gunshot wounds. I'm not aware of any study of hunters diagnosed with ill effects caused from lead shot animals. If you know of any study, please inform me.

There are may papers and articles out there. Here is something from the American Journal of Medicine:

"As lead is one of the few substances that does not have a
safe level of exposure, it is important to prevent all lead
exposure. Lead has negative consequences for nearly every
major physiologic system, with the central nervous system
being the system classically impacted. Very low levels of
lead exposure result in neurologic impairments, and as
many as 7.7% of children that eat wild game harvested with
lead bullets will experience a reduction of one IQ point.13
That magnitude of a reduction in IQ translates into a
decreased lifetime earnings value of between £1319 (2042
USD) and £11,967 (18,528 USD)."

The author goes on to state:

Often when I explain to hunters the risks associated with lead exposure, especially when considering their children, their response is, “I have been hunting for years
and I am fine.” My response to them is, “but just imagine how smart you could have been.”

Here is a link to the article:
https://www.amjmed.com/article/S0002-9343(16)30021-3/pdf


Since there is no safe level of lead to consume and there is a very serviceable alternative to lead bullets, I can't think of a reason to harvest wildlife for consumption with lead. However it is, thankfully, a free country.

 

[shootsblanks]

However it is, thankfully, a free country.

Bit of an overstatement

 

[madashell]

Yeah, must live in a different Canada than we do.

let's see now...

- allodial title taken away from us so ULTIMATELY you don't own your own property
- completely bulls**t anti-hate crime laws which literally means no legal freedom of speech
- a private company cleverly called The Bank of Canada" loans our money back to our "government" at interest.. hence our increasing debt and ever lowering buying power of of dollar

About the three most foundational things in our country stripped away from us.

All put in place by that POS Sr. Trudeau btw

but yeah.... you're free to use lead bullets though. I'll give you that one

Bit of an overstatement

 

[track]

There are may papers and articles out there. Here is something from the American Journal of Medicine:

"As lead is one of the few substances that does not have a
safe level of exposure, it is important to prevent all lead
exposure. Lead has negative consequences for nearly every
major physiologic system, with the central nervous system
being the system classically impacted. Very low levels of
lead exposure result in neurologic impairments, and as
many as 7.7% of children that eat wild game harvested with
lead bullets will experience a reduction of one IQ point.13
That magnitude of a reduction in IQ translates into a
decreased lifetime earnings value of between £1319 (2042
USD) and £11,967 (18,528 USD)."

The author goes on to state:

Often when I explain to hunters the risks associated with lead exposure, especially when considering their children, their response is, “I have been hunting for years
and I am fine.” My response to them is, “but just imagine how smart you could have been.”

Here is a link to the article:
https://www.amjmed.com/article/S0002-9343(16)30021-3/pdf


Since there is no safe level of lead to consume and there is a very serviceable alternative to lead bullets, I can't think of a reason to harvest wildlife for consumption with lead. However it is, thankfully, a free country.

Thanks for the article. Now I know why my IQ is 148.5 instead of 150. Personally, I believe that I'm very low risk because nothing has been found in my annual blood tests. May I suggest that hunters have their family doctors conduct blood tests for lead toxins.

 

[CSI-WALLEYE]

Thanks for the article. Now I know why my IQ is 148.5 instead of 150. Personally, I believe that I'm very low risk because nothing has been found in my annual blood tests. May I suggest that hunters have their family doctors conduct blood tests for lead toxins.

Is it not simpler to just not shoot lead?

 

[CSI-WALLEYE]

Yeah, must live in a different Canada than we do.

let's see now...

- allodial title taken away from us so ULTIMATELY you don't own your own property
- completely bulls**t anti-hate crime laws which literally means no legal freedom of speech
- a private company cleverly called The Bank of Canada" loans our money back to our "government" at interest.. hence our increasing debt and ever lowering buying power of of dollar

About the three most foundational things in our country stripped away from us.

All put in place by that POS Sr. Trudeau btw

but yeah.... you're free to use lead bullets though. I'll give you that one

I just meant we are free to do all manner of things that are not in our best interests and I may be completely wrong. The amount of lead consumed by hunters and their families may be completely safe. But some studies indicate that eating game shot by lead increases the levels of lead in your blood. I just can't see that as a good thing. So it is a potential risk I will avoid. I will save the few functioning neurons I have remaining for destruction in more amusing ways.

 

[rkm456]

as many as 7.7% of children that eat wild game harvested with
lead bullets will experience a reduction of one IQ point.13
That magnitude of a reduction in IQ translates into a
decreased lifetime earnings value of between £1319 (2042
USD) and £11,967 (18,528 USD).

So using the higher number being presented, 8 out 100 kids might earn $1000 less per year.

I'm not one to tell someone what they should, or shouldn't do; particularly when it comes to their kids. If people would prefer to err on the side of caution then they absolutely should. But those aren't exactly numbers that warrant the level of fear people are doling out over the subject. The posted article doesn't actually state that they know for sure eating lead hunted meat will increase lead exposure. They're actually very careful not to say it:

The consumption of meat from cervids killed with lead ammunition may increase lead exposure and its associated health risks. It would be important to inform the population, particularly hunters, about this potential risk and promote the use of lead-free ammunition.

 

[SHELL SHUCKER]

Our skies globally are being laced with aluminum based agents daily to dry the clouds & modify weather patterns along with ionosphere heating, high frequency microwave emitters to bend the jet stream to bring vast storms to areas that were once reasonably stable. And folks are worried about a wee bit of lead in harvested game?

What a fookin' joke & a sad state of affairs for our species. End game is coming up quick.