An LMG and a FA battle rifle are not the same thing, nor are they used for the same purposes. We had 3 rnd burst, which I found just as useless as a FA battle rifle in the hands of the general infantryman. LMG are heavy and need lots of ammo weight to be used much. Without lots of good training and practice FA fire from either platform is quite inaccurate compared to semi auto. Before the “tactical trainers” pile on me, I lived this as an infantry Marine. There is a place for FA personal weapons among highly trained orgs with a large training budget, but actual “door kickers” are a very small fraction of any organization. FA for a fun, absolutely, like a 200mph car. Go as fast as you can afford.
Automatic usage
- Thread starter cyclone
- Start date
Wileecoyote
Regular
- Location
- Eastern Ontario
In all the shooting I've done where full auto was allowed (including PWT 3), the directions were always to keep it to 3-6 round bursts. That was on C8, C9, .50 cal, and even on the 3"70, 3"50 and 57mm on ships. The barrels can only sustain full auto for limited time as they get too hot, burn out, lag and eventually cause cook-offs. You haven't seen anything till you're standing on the bridge of a ship waiting for a 3"70 round to cook off!!! When it does go bang, everyone jumps!!!! I've just dated myself............
Not infantried that much? HHHMMMM!! I guess Afghanistan doesn't count . It's not used much for a multitude of reasons. weight of individual fire has multiplied ,yet it ALWAYS comes down to the guy who has to carry it. When you start looking at load out, going Rambo/Wolverine looks cool but its hard to keep feeding the pig. Whos going to resupp them. Controlled semi fire is the way to go,win the firefight is hard to do if you run out of ammo.
maple_leaf_eh
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Firing full auto is like dating a stripper. At first it is exciting and tantalizing. After a while, it loses its charm because making things go fast means you gotta be on your game, or you lose control. Then its just noisy, expensive and you gotta clean up.
My full auto gun-camp experience was the first challenge was finding and keeping enough guns working properly. Practise nights is a different kind of shooting than live fire. The QM only wants to take back dry lightly oiled guns. But wet and dripping ones work better - a whole lot better. So the challenge is to lube them up against all the rules you were taught, and keep cycling the parts to get the juices flowing. On the range, or in my case a closed road with targets of opportunity at pre-briefed grid references, it was DRIVER HALT! Radio calls. Verbalize the target and the fire commands so the staff in the back seat could hear, then go hot. Most of the time the MG would not fire reliably and the problems had to be cleared and fixed. The test is not complete until the gun is back in action.
The targets might get six or eight holes for the fifty fired at them. Tracer is not always easy to see in bright light. It also seems intent of starting grass fires, so you have to watch where the ricochets go. When the guns are working, and the crews are happy, it is fun. But when nothing works, full auto is a nuisance.
My full auto gun-camp experience was the first challenge was finding and keeping enough guns working properly. Practise nights is a different kind of shooting than live fire. The QM only wants to take back dry lightly oiled guns. But wet and dripping ones work better - a whole lot better. So the challenge is to lube them up against all the rules you were taught, and keep cycling the parts to get the juices flowing. On the range, or in my case a closed road with targets of opportunity at pre-briefed grid references, it was DRIVER HALT! Radio calls. Verbalize the target and the fire commands so the staff in the back seat could hear, then go hot. Most of the time the MG would not fire reliably and the problems had to be cleared and fixed. The test is not complete until the gun is back in action.
The targets might get six or eight holes for the fifty fired at them. Tracer is not always easy to see in bright light. It also seems intent of starting grass fires, so you have to watch where the ricochets go. When the guns are working, and the crews are happy, it is fun. But when nothing works, full auto is a nuisance.
You must have missed the memo about the10 years of recent hard soldiering our infantry performed in a place called Afghanistan...
angryeyebrows
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Oscar Mike
Are you infantry? When did you deploy and with who? Plenty of other operations occurred in Afghanistan, not just D&S or convoy. I’m genuinely currious to know where you think automatic fire (with the rifle) would be better suited than semi-auto, with regards to infantry tactics, in any form of operation.
I rarely shoot full auto. ( service carbine or rifle )
Specific usage only.
For the rest there is LMG's and GPMG's.
I don't see how I could carry enough ammo if I had to use full auto on a regular basis. Even rapid fire ( relatively fast semi well placed shots ) burn them pretty quick and you will go empty sooner then needed.
That is for dismounted infantry BTW.
Specific usage only.
For the rest there is LMG's and GPMG's.
I don't see how I could carry enough ammo if I had to use full auto on a regular basis. Even rapid fire ( relatively fast semi well placed shots ) burn them pretty quick and you will go empty sooner then needed.
That is for dismounted infantry BTW.
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OH yea!?!?!
1- ''I can think of a half dozen reasons to use auto that involves not sticking my head out''
Well brother... Only one well placed round will definately make sure you put your head down. You don't challenge a round that is comming at you. LMG's are there for exactly that. Win the firefight. Move your guys and so on...
2- ''You can reload those 556 mags pretty fast.'' The ammo you reload comes from somewhere right? And most of the time that place is in your back pack that is already too heavy... I carried 5 boxes of 200 rounds of C9 in my pack in the past. But eh... You could spent those pretty quick and after that what's next? Well yea... you are ####ed.
3- '' It's just a tool like anything, and just because you're not trained or told about something specific doesn't take away the value of it."
We know the exact value of it and use it accordingly. The battlefield is a little more complicated then a place where your only concern is to be able to load mags rapidly. Resources management is crucial. And we all train with that in mind. Going on a 3 days run with all the meals and water you need plus all the equipment and ammo will tell you how limited operationally you can be. And it might be more limited then what you can imagine. Unless you can carry a 150lbs ruck all day.
maple_leaf_eh
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Full auto IMHO is ammo hosed at an objective so a guy (or guys) keep their heads down. It creates noise, dust, smoke, flying dirt and crap not including bullets. When the rounds do impact around your own position, the eyeballs get squinty and the stomach tightens. When the objective isn't firing at you, it is easier to get out and manoeuver.
Is full auto fire taught as a skill? Dunno. Those weren't part of my predeployment on any of my rotos. I do know most in-Canada training emphasized get out to the range, fire for score or fire for famil', but not a great deal of fire for experience, and then back to range shack to get cleaned up and go home.
Is full auto fire taught as a skill? Dunno. Those weren't part of my predeployment on any of my rotos. I do know most in-Canada training emphasized get out to the range, fire for score or fire for famil', but not a great deal of fire for experience, and then back to range shack to get cleaned up and go home.
angryeyebrows
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Oscar Mike
I assume you are referring to clearing an interconnected trench system, if so, then yes; semi-auto (with lots of grenades) is the way to go. Clearing a trench system is not unlike clearing buildings in an ICQB scenario, and we don’t use auto to do that. You are essentially clearing short hallways and small rooms, albeit from a crouched position, and maybe one or two members making entry at a time. When clearing rooms, gone are the days of busting through a door and spraying the room with a zig zag pattern. I’m sure somewhere there is some old Sgt or WO still teaching that, but it’s not as effective as training the soldier to make quick aimed shots.
Presumably you had plenty of time to ruminate on the value of automatic rifle fire while manning a guard tower or playing IRED hopscotch while you were deployed to Afghanistan. Others did not have such a luxurious and laid-back go of things. My soldiers and I spent the majority of our time well outside the wire conducting light infantry offensive operations in the form of platoon and company-level fighting patrols, good 'ol Advance to Contact, village cordon and search, night ambush, and so forth embedded with the Afghan National Army Kandak we were responsible for mentoring in combat ops. Once the fighting season kicked-off at the end of May, it was "game on" with multiple firefights every day, for days on end, less the occasional maintenance day for rest and refit.
Thanks for guarding whatever it was that you guarded. For all I know, you provided a safe FOB for me to operate out of, and if so I appreciate the support. But don't make the mistake of thinking that your war was the same as mine, or that your experience was universal in its application because that simply isn't so. Some of us (eg. The Operational Mentoring and Liaison Teams) actually did perform full-spectrum, light infantry operations on a regular basis. Members of the Canadian Combat Teams that we worked alongside could say the same about mounted and dismounted mechanized operations, despite never conducting the broad, sweeping attacks across the desert plains that some might have envisioned.
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In the Infantry, all infantrymen and officers are trained on the appropriate use of automatic fire. Consider that as part of our annual qualification with the C7/C8 weapon system, the final stage of our qualification (PWT3) is supposed to be conducted only in automatic fire. So yes, it's an ongoing thing.
Further, all infantrymen and officers are trained on the C9 and C6 at a minimum. These weapons only fire in automatic. So, yes. We use automatic fire. Do you see anyone firing their C7 like a water hose from the hip? Never. That's just a great way to blow through all your ammo and get shot on a two way range. There is more value in using a C7/C8 in semiautomatic fire in the vast majority of scenarios.
As for the Americans. They don't train like Canadians. If you're trained as a rifleman, that's all you are. In Canada, all infantry are trained on the LMG and GPMG. We never want the MGs to go down. Does it take more time to train Canadian soldiers? Yes, but IMHO, it's worth it.
Further, all infantrymen and officers are trained on the C9 and C6 at a minimum. These weapons only fire in automatic. So, yes. We use automatic fire. Do you see anyone firing their C7 like a water hose from the hip? Never. That's just a great way to blow through all your ammo and get shot on a two way range. There is more value in using a C7/C8 in semiautomatic fire in the vast majority of scenarios.
As for the Americans. They don't train like Canadians. If you're trained as a rifleman, that's all you are. In Canada, all infantry are trained on the LMG and GPMG. We never want the MGs to go down. Does it take more time to train Canadian soldiers? Yes, but IMHO, it's worth it.
