Best Rifle of WW2, Par Deux

[redleg]

The Mauser may still be in production but it is in production as a hunting rifle not a military rifle. Both the Enfield and the Mauser ended their military service with the major armies at the same time.
Magazine capacity is important and not because of mass charges. All else being equal an Enfield user had to reload half as many times as a Mauser user. In battle shooting is better than reloading.
The Enfield is simple, and reliable. The No4 had excellent battle sights.
I'd say it is a better battle rifle.

 

[Dr.Lector]

I think the starter of this thread should have specified if it is about the best rifle from those used in ww2 or from those found in military hands at the time of ww2.

I do not dismiss the Schmidt-Rubin
or the neutrality of that country. Hop Schwitz!!!

But some of the rifles discussed in here have seen more war than others,
so they passed (or didn't) more tests.

 

[Dosing]

Number 2- M1903 Springfield/Remington

Ickkkk, Shouldn't even be mentioned here.



While everyone is ooooohing and ahhhhhing over the LEs mag, remember this, the great thing about a detachable mag is the ability to lose it, including when you need it. The capacity is fine, but rim issues, loss etc, knock it down a bit, and besides the RIFLE that won WW2 was the MN, some folks may want to make note of how much of the war the Russians and Co fought vs the Allies on the West

The MN wins hands down, same power as an LE or K98, if not more, easy for anyone to fix or maintain (that bolt is a dream to strip), and the mag is the best that there was, easy to dump and clean, easy to fill, easy to load from. The only thing the LE does way better is a safety, lets be honest the MNs blows, but hey, what did Ivan seem to care???

1) Mosin Nagant (any mod, but 44 is king)
2) LE #5
2) Just to piss some folks off, The Mannlicher M95 in 8X56R

 

[Hitzy]

1) No4....superior sights, 10 rounds, #### on closing
2) Every other bolt action at the time was basically obsolete for 20 years as they had not improved anything from WWI other then shortening the barrels. Capacity could have been increased and better sights used on all the other bolt guns of the war.

 

[ESQ]

My grandfather has an Arisaka. It is built like a brick ####house, but I have never fired it.

 

[Dr.Lector]

My grandfather has an Arisaka. It is built like a brick s**thouse, but I have never fired it.

I knew what I was doing when I started the #### with the Ari's on this thread



Maybe it's not the right place here to mention that, but Arisaka's had (one of) the strongest, most rigid action ever, according to tests made on more than 600 bolt-actions during 30 years by one of the most trustworthy mil labs in the world.

For years, a lot of ammo companies (in US and not only) used test guns built on Arisaka actions, exactly for that reason.
Maybe some of you remember in the old days (maybe until late 80's), in some of the precision rifle competitions, the poor man strong action was often an Arisaka. And it would also be today if they weren't so rare (and lately, expensive).

Long time ago, I had a 257Roberts on an Arisaka action. I don't remember who did it. I was too young to apreciate that rifle

 

[jcbruno]

I think the starter of this thread should have specified if it is about the best rifle from those used in ww2 or from those found in military hands at the time of ww2.

I do not dismiss the Schmidt-Rubin
or the neutrality of that country. Hop Schwitz!!!

But some of the rifles discussed in here have seen more war than others,
so they passed (or didn't) more tests.

a little research told me that the scmidt-rubin did find it's way into the hands of some crack german alpine units aswels as a swiss traditin of mercanarys the scmidt&rubin was used by swiss volunteers in Finland against the soviets and by swiss volunteers in the spanish civil war against francos armies

 

[Alonzo]

Excellent discussion guys...keep it up.
I have to agree with Claven2 and Dr. Lector...I should have been more specific relating to what rifle...It appears everyone got the direction here already. I was refering to Battle Rifles. Glad to hear no one suggested the stg-44
One thing that does surprise me though and I did intentionally insert one specific rifle.
No one mentioned the fact that Springfield Armory purchased rights from Mauser to manufactur the m1903...due to the distinct similarities there was concern over...and if I recall there were threats...of copyright infringement coming for the german gun maker.
BTW...the M1903 ruled Camp Perry for decades where no Mauser would have dared appear.
Keep on posting guys...let's hear what you have to say.

 

[ilovepotatos]

While everyone is ooooohing and ahhhhhing over the LEs mag, remember this, the great thing about a detachable mag is the ability to lose it, including when you need it. The capacity is fine, but rim issues, loss etc, knock it down a bit

Exactly. The German's doctrine was based around the MG! 1200 rpm for suppressive fire. They didn't need 10 rounds in their magazine, sine they had Hans at the giving end of a slipstream of bullets.

The Germans didn't need a 10 round magazine that would be lost or have problems with the rimmed cartridge...they used an internal 5 round clip that was a piece of cake to unjam. Did the cartridges jam? No problem. Just take a spare round and punch the release in the bottom. I can do it in under 10 seconds...I'm sure Hans could do it in half that.

Sure, the Enfield has a faster throw, but the Mauser has better accuracy and a lot more safety. There's nothing worse than having a gun blow up in your face.

 

[Claven2]

Well, in fairness, Enfields aren't exactly known for blowing up with factory ammo either

 

[tiriaq]

The US paid royalties to Mauser for manufacture of the Springfield rifle until 1917. Patent rights, not copyright.
Primer salts can be dissolved with water, or perhaps neutralized with an appropriate agent. Ammonia isn't involved, althoughit will attack metallic fouling.
These discussions are interesting, everyone has an opinion. None of the actual participants had much of a choice in rifles, and just about any service rifle adopted will do the job requuired of it.

 

[bushwhacker]

If I was told to choose a WW2 bolt action rifle to fight a war of mixed action long to short range, static position, fluid movement/following armour, with/without MG support, I would still choose the #4 Lee Enfield over the others. No arguments about other improvements/overcapacity strength/better cartridge design would apply, because those choices weren't available without sacrificing firepower. Now, given a machine shop, I could improve any of those rifles, but that wasn't an option to the guy who was expendable. I would just thank my lucky stars that the British never got to go ahead with a reduced magazine capacity rifle, even though it was designed to be stronger, more accurate and with a better cartridge. Ya dance with the gal that ya brung!

 

[Dimitri]

I would just thank my lucky stars that the British never got to go ahead with a reduced magazine capacity rifle, even though it was designed to be stronger, more accurate and with a better cartridge.

The British tried out the P14 (A mauser based rifle I believe) and in the end the scrapped it and then developed the No.4 Enfield. What does that say ??

Dimitri

 

[smellie]

I remember once, many years ago, a friend and myself took a decent Smellie and a brand-spanking-new Kar98k and a shopping bag full of ammo, up into the mountains one Sunday afternoon.

The Mauser action was tightening up and you really had to wrench on that bolt-handle to get anywhere...... after 37 rounds of fullpower Service ammo.

The old Lee-Enfield was still chewing them up after 65 rounds as fast as the rifle could be loaded from chargers...... gave up because there was smoke coming from under the woodwork and oil burning behind the rear sight.

There is no second-place bolt rifle. First place is a tie: the Number 4 and the SMLE.

Third place is the Kar98k.

I put the Moisin-Nagant below because, although it is a wizard in the cold, it can be a ##### to make truly accurate. The Lee series and the Mausers are just so easy to tune, especially if you have an idea what you are doing.

Springfield 1903A3 was WW-2 manufacture, but I don't count it as a true battle rifle because it didn't do a lot of battling.... although it was the culmination of the 1903 series, probably the best of the lot.

There: I've made enough enemies for one day!

 

[ilovepotatos]

The British tried out the P14 (A mauser based rifle I believe) and in the end the scrapped it and then developed the No.4 Enfield. What does that say ??

Dimitri

They crapped it because a war started and they needed to standardize with what they already had issued to most troops. They would have likely adopted it for regular service if the war hadn't started when it did I'm sure.

 

[ilovepotatos]

I remember once, many years ago, a friend and myself took a decent Smellie and a brand-spanking-new Kar98k and a shopping bag full of ammo, up into the mountains one Sunday afternoon.

The Mauser action was tightening up and you really had to wrench on that bolt-handle to get anywhere...... after 37 rounds of fullpower Service ammo.

That is the most unfair comparison you could possibly use.
Another unfair comparison would be to take a 30 year old Remington 870 that has been broken in nicely, and compare its action to a brand new Norinco 870 copy. They're both great guns, but one has had plenty of time to be worn in to its full potential.

Not only that, but the fact you claim it is a "brand-spanking-new Kar98k" leads me to believe you don't know what you're talking about. It was more likely an M48 or a CZ24 if it really was "brand-spanking-new".

 

[Dimitri]

They crapped it because a war started and they needed to standardize with what they already had issued to most troops. They would have likely adopted it for regular service if the war hadn't started when it did I'm sure.

Because of World War 1 it was put on hold and after the No.1's effectiviness was proven in battle time and time agian the British woke up and smelled the coffee that they had the rifle they needed so they didn't continue development.

Dimitri

 

[Gibbs505]

Therefore the Lee Enfield is the best battle rifle in the world!

 

[Steppenwolf]

Life is like a box of chocolates.

 

[Alonzo]

The US paid royalties to Mauser for manufacture of the Springfield rifle until 1917. Patent rights, not copyright.


That's right, it was patent rights...could not come up with the correct term when I posted that.
The later produced Remington 03's had a rough bolt, and a few stamped parts, yet they were very reliable and accurate. They were used till mid war from what I have read, at least till M-1 production caught up.
I have a few photos of soldiers carrying the 1903 in the Solomons...it seems the ETO got the majority of the M-1's.
Thanks
Cheers