New Scope Recommendation
- Thread starter crowellsr
- Start date
Just saying?
How’s that old saying go? “It’s better that everyone thinks you’re a moron than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.”
Do you have to go to school to become an expert scope user, or just simply show up to an F-class match? And somehow you already know which usernames attend?
There is more to life then F-Class matches............Many of us here shoot PRS type and field matches out to 1500 meters or more........
I have shot a few F-class matches in the past and even though I do ok, it is not my cup of tea........
There is more to life then F-Class matches............Many of us here shoot PRS type and field matches out to 1500 meters or more........
I have shot a few F-class matches in the past and even though I do ok, it is not my cup of tea........
I have played both PRS for about 4 years and F Class for more like 20, and there are surprising differences between the skillsets and the people I've come to know on both sides of the fence.
PRS is not the accuracy game that F Class is (but PRS guys don't like to hear that) and it's easy for an F Class shooter to assume he would perform well in PRS but that is not really the case.
The reverse is also quite true. I've seen many tactical types show up puffy chested for F Class and find themselves at or near last place... never to be seen or heard from again, and it was quite humbling when I started PRS. Where are the wind flags? Where did my shot go? No Sighters? What do you mean 8 shots in 90 seconds? I'm shooting from where?
Both are challenging games but being good at one does not correlate to being good at the other.
Both require good gear, but I would say the typical PRS rifle is more expensive (all in) than a typical F Class rifle... With PRS guys often having by far the most expensive scopes.
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Different game, different equipment.
Scope preferences between those that shoot benchrest and those that shoot PRS are pretty different.
I know it is, I was agreeing with you.
Pretty well said. Different disciplines that require different equipment. There's a reason why PRS and benchrest/F-class rigs look so different.
PRS rigs are shot in adverse conditions, on 1-2+ MOA sized steel targets. They need to run in the rain, blowing dust, tolerate the abuse of being knocked around stages/barricades/props. Rapid target engagement - reliability on the clock is critical, reliable scope tracking, holdover reticles for stages where you can't dial or holding over is more effective due to time constraints. Pretty much the complete opposite of benchrest/F-class (more precision, set distances, more time, protection from the elements). So of course the scopes that are used in each discipline are going to be very different - they have a very different set of criteria they need to fulfill.
You really couldn't ask for a different set of criteria in equipment than PRS and benchrest/F-class. It would be a bit foolish to recommend PRS gear for the OP's needs. To recommend PRS gear here would be like telling the PRS crowd they should run a Savage bolt action rifle (or Jerry rigged 783) and a SFP Sightron scope.
So to the OP, don't listen to the PRS shooters that "even shoot 1500m or more...", as their criteria and needs in a rifle/scope will be completely different than yours. The complete misguidance provided on this board is absolutely frustrating.
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
had fun catching up on the drama.... OP's question was about high mag variable target scope for Bench shooting. Got some great answers from some very experienced F class shooters... pity not everyone is listening.
Then it kind of hung a left ... as things typically go and way off topic.... and of course, some mud slinging whenever possible
Since it was brought it up.
72 registered shooters... some practiscore glitches. The 783 continues to run without fuss and I am running a unique chamber/bullet combo.... more testing mid Oct at the next BCPRL match.
I get a chuckle to those few that can't post a response without trying to insult something or someone to try and add credibility to their position. It would be more credible if they just demonstrated their opinions through their results.
Ummmm, real world results and experience. What an interesting concept????
Jerry
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Sorry but haven't been looking at the site for a while because was down at Rattlesnake shooting at 1000 yards for the weekend. Conditions were the usual medium to high winds (10-15 mph- low by normal standards), high temps 95 F, fast switching directions.
We had almost a different point of aim for every shot due to extremely fast switching winds. 20 round strings with unlimited sighters as per US rules. The ability to understand and read the mirage was crucial to be successful as the flags, mirage, and bullets were all going different directions. Sometimes the flags told the truth, sometimes it was the mirage and you had to be paying attention to everything.
The ability to see the varying conditions made all the difference. As the mirage intensified, the targets became a little more blurry but the mirage switching became better to read. This is a typical F-Class match at this range. In these conditions if your scope was able to see through the mirage (HD type high end glass) then it put you at a disadvantage. Please do not read this to believe that cheap glass was better but glass the accentuated the mirage was better.
These are my impressions for the two predominate long range games and why you tend to get different points of view.
F-Class and ELR shooting (most use similar equipment abet one uses bigger cartridges). The F-class rifles tend to be a lot more accurate. To win we need 1/4 moa rifles right to 1000 yards. If you don't have then you don't win. Also the bullets have to be designed right is order to stay stable at the various ranges. People are friendlier and more willing to help and engage others without calling people down. More attention to the right equipment for the job regardless of type and cost.
PRS shooting (from the experience I have had seeing and talking to a lot of them - attended a few matches). The rifles could be as accurate but few of the shooters really understand ballistics or tuning their equipment. Very few PRS shooters know how to shoot long range and tend to do very poorly when attending F-Class matches which really is an accurate game. Far more attention to ego and high priced equipment as opposed to understanding what equipment does, shooting knowledge or skill. More concerned to strutting around like peacocks and looking good.
PRS shooting is also serviced by a number of gunsmiths who tend to push aggressively the most expensive gear because that is what they make their profit on. They have no motive for pushing cheaper stuff that actually works but has little profit for them. Therefore cheaper equipment is junk!! No money in it for them. That is why you see the $8,000 rifles being pushed over the $2000 build's. Both will preform equally if they knew how to tune them and shoot.
F-Class, due to it's extreme accuracy requirements, is serviced by a small number of gunsmiths who really know what they are doing and tend to be people who pride themselves in making very accurate rifles regardless of profit or volume. Accuracy is king in their worlds. This actually has held F-Class back due to the time getting stuff built through these guys because it takes so long.
Just my impressions.
The originator of this thread asked about scopes for benchrest. Benchrest is very much like F-Class and that is why I focused my answers to help him. Unfortunately the people that joined in were the types that look to higher cost as the answers to everything probably do to ego (I can buy the most expensive there-fore I am better) which in this game is not.
We had almost a different point of aim for every shot due to extremely fast switching winds. 20 round strings with unlimited sighters as per US rules. The ability to understand and read the mirage was crucial to be successful as the flags, mirage, and bullets were all going different directions. Sometimes the flags told the truth, sometimes it was the mirage and you had to be paying attention to everything.
The ability to see the varying conditions made all the difference. As the mirage intensified, the targets became a little more blurry but the mirage switching became better to read. This is a typical F-Class match at this range. In these conditions if your scope was able to see through the mirage (HD type high end glass) then it put you at a disadvantage. Please do not read this to believe that cheap glass was better but glass the accentuated the mirage was better.
These are my impressions for the two predominate long range games and why you tend to get different points of view.
F-Class and ELR shooting (most use similar equipment abet one uses bigger cartridges). The F-class rifles tend to be a lot more accurate. To win we need 1/4 moa rifles right to 1000 yards. If you don't have then you don't win. Also the bullets have to be designed right is order to stay stable at the various ranges. People are friendlier and more willing to help and engage others without calling people down. More attention to the right equipment for the job regardless of type and cost.
PRS shooting (from the experience I have had seeing and talking to a lot of them - attended a few matches). The rifles could be as accurate but few of the shooters really understand ballistics or tuning their equipment. Very few PRS shooters know how to shoot long range and tend to do very poorly when attending F-Class matches which really is an accurate game. Far more attention to ego and high priced equipment as opposed to understanding what equipment does, shooting knowledge or skill. More concerned to strutting around like peacocks and looking good.
PRS shooting is also serviced by a number of gunsmiths who tend to push aggressively the most expensive gear because that is what they make their profit on. They have no motive for pushing cheaper stuff that actually works but has little profit for them. Therefore cheaper equipment is junk!! No money in it for them. That is why you see the $8,000 rifles being pushed over the $2000 build's. Both will preform equally if they knew how to tune them and shoot.
F-Class, due to it's extreme accuracy requirements, is serviced by a small number of gunsmiths who really know what they are doing and tend to be people who pride themselves in making very accurate rifles regardless of profit or volume. Accuracy is king in their worlds. This actually has held F-Class back due to the time getting stuff built through these guys because it takes so long.
Just my impressions.
The originator of this thread asked about scopes for benchrest. Benchrest is very much like F-Class and that is why I focused my answers to help him. Unfortunately the people that joined in were the types that look to higher cost as the answers to everything probably do to ego (I can buy the most expensive there-fore I am better) which in this game is not.
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The whole intention of my post was to get the PRS shooters out of this, as the criteria for a scope (amongst other equipment) is completely different. Those suggesting a FFP PRS scope for benchrest disciplines is misguided advice. Different disciplines, different gear. Use gear that's fit for duty rather than trying to shoe horn it to make it work for something else.
There's a reason why benchrest/F-class equipment is different than PRS equipment, and both disciplines have seen a constant evolution of gear and technique/strategy to get them where they are at today. To come from one background and completely dismiss the gear and tactics of another is simply ignorant. Whether it be a PRS guy telling a benchrester what gear he should use or vice versa.
It's pretty evident on these boards that people from different backgrounds like to impose and interject their views onto those competing in a completely different discipline. I wasn't planning on jumping into this thread until I saw a self proclaimed PRS shooter trying to tell F-class shooters what scopes they use because it works in the field up to 1,500+m. Completely different discipline and goals, just because it works there, doesn't mean its the best piece of equipment for F-class, and there's really no need for that advice as it doesn't help the OP.
Likewise, we have people that come from predominantly benchrest/F-class disciplines trying to tell people what equipment they need for PRS shooting. They may dabble a bit in some grass roots PRS stuff, but you can't completely discount the evolution of the sport and where it's gotten to today equipment wise - it would be a good idea to see what equipment is being used in the birth place of the sport, the USA. Many, many years and dollars spent figuring out what works and what doesn't, and gear manufacturers have been in a constant evolution of producing better gear to better suit that discipline. The misconception on here is that you have to spend a lot of money to get the appropriate gear - was true in the past, simply not true today. Another misconception is that in order to have a budget option, you need to take something like a 783 (which some on here have falsely claimed to be the best and in some cases the only budget PRS option), which has almost zero aftermarket support, and bubba the hell out of it to make it better suited for PRS. Again, horrible advice. Sure, someone can do okay with it at some small grass roots PRS events, but there's a lot of great budget options out there today that are actually purpose built for the PRS discipline. You don't have to spend $8,000 on a PRS rig, especially not today. Likewise, people spend plenty of bling on their benchrest rigs. ~$1000+ dollar joystick bipods, custom Alex Wheeler rigs with high dollar Borden actions and custom keel/rudder stocks - they cost every bit as much as a high dollar PRS rig, but they are also setting world records. So no point in pretending that its only PRS shooters spending a lot of money on rifles.
Buy the gear that's in your budget range and appropriate for your intended purposes. Because it works in one discipline, doesn't mean it's going to be the best for other disciplines. Lot's of great options today in all sorts of price ranges that are fit for purpose for specific disciplines out there, we live in a renaissance period of precision rifles, the sport is growing and so are the options every day. Just because you can take a station wagon to the drag races, doesn't mean it's the best tool for the job. But on that same token, for some people a station wagon may be the best tool for the job.
I don't sell equipment or have any financial interest in the game, so at the end of the day it doesn't matter to me what people buy. But the advice constantly offered on this board is some of the worst I've seen from the precision rifle boards I visit, a lot due to people with little experience in certain disciplines yet trying to come across as experts. May work for some people, but may end up costing others a lot of money once they figure out that the equipment they purchased isn't optimal and fit for purpose for their intended uses. It would behoove those to see what is working and winning in each discipline - there's been a lot of money, time, effort and many lessons learned over the years in each discipline, and you would be remiss to completely dismiss that.
With that, I'm exiting this thread. You guys can continue to argue about why a F-class shooter should use scope 'X' because it works for PRS and out in the field to 1500+m, or why PRS shooters are a bunch of knuckle draggers that don't understand ballistics and spend way too much on equipment to make up for their lack of brain cells and should instead be shooting 783's or Savages.
There's a reason why benchrest/F-class equipment is different than PRS equipment, and both disciplines have seen a constant evolution of gear and technique/strategy to get them where they are at today. To come from one background and completely dismiss the gear and tactics of another is simply ignorant. Whether it be a PRS guy telling a benchrester what gear he should use or vice versa.
It's pretty evident on these boards that people from different backgrounds like to impose and interject their views onto those competing in a completely different discipline. I wasn't planning on jumping into this thread until I saw a self proclaimed PRS shooter trying to tell F-class shooters what scopes they use because it works in the field up to 1,500+m. Completely different discipline and goals, just because it works there, doesn't mean its the best piece of equipment for F-class, and there's really no need for that advice as it doesn't help the OP.
Likewise, we have people that come from predominantly benchrest/F-class disciplines trying to tell people what equipment they need for PRS shooting. They may dabble a bit in some grass roots PRS stuff, but you can't completely discount the evolution of the sport and where it's gotten to today equipment wise - it would be a good idea to see what equipment is being used in the birth place of the sport, the USA. Many, many years and dollars spent figuring out what works and what doesn't, and gear manufacturers have been in a constant evolution of producing better gear to better suit that discipline. The misconception on here is that you have to spend a lot of money to get the appropriate gear - was true in the past, simply not true today. Another misconception is that in order to have a budget option, you need to take something like a 783 (which some on here have falsely claimed to be the best and in some cases the only budget PRS option), which has almost zero aftermarket support, and bubba the hell out of it to make it better suited for PRS. Again, horrible advice. Sure, someone can do okay with it at some small grass roots PRS events, but there's a lot of great budget options out there today that are actually purpose built for the PRS discipline. You don't have to spend $8,000 on a PRS rig, especially not today. Likewise, people spend plenty of bling on their benchrest rigs. ~$1000+ dollar joystick bipods, custom Alex Wheeler rigs with high dollar Borden actions and custom keel/rudder stocks - they cost every bit as much as a high dollar PRS rig, but they are also setting world records. So no point in pretending that its only PRS shooters spending a lot of money on rifles.
Buy the gear that's in your budget range and appropriate for your intended purposes. Because it works in one discipline, doesn't mean it's going to be the best for other disciplines. Lot's of great options today in all sorts of price ranges that are fit for purpose for specific disciplines out there, we live in a renaissance period of precision rifles, the sport is growing and so are the options every day. Just because you can take a station wagon to the drag races, doesn't mean it's the best tool for the job. But on that same token, for some people a station wagon may be the best tool for the job.
I don't sell equipment or have any financial interest in the game, so at the end of the day it doesn't matter to me what people buy. But the advice constantly offered on this board is some of the worst I've seen from the precision rifle boards I visit, a lot due to people with little experience in certain disciplines yet trying to come across as experts. May work for some people, but may end up costing others a lot of money once they figure out that the equipment they purchased isn't optimal and fit for purpose for their intended uses. It would behoove those to see what is working and winning in each discipline - there's been a lot of money, time, effort and many lessons learned over the years in each discipline, and you would be remiss to completely dismiss that.
With that, I'm exiting this thread. You guys can continue to argue about why a F-class shooter should use scope 'X' because it works for PRS and out in the field to 1500+m, or why PRS shooters are a bunch of knuckle draggers that don't understand ballistics and spend way too much on equipment to make up for their lack of brain cells and should instead be shooting 783's or Savages.
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