Greatest battle implement ever devised - SVT-40? Stg44? .. or M1 Garand
- Thread starter steelgray
- Start date
- Status
WeatherdoG
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Trenton, ON
This is 100% correct, spears were in use thousands of years before firearms were even imagined. Even after the invention of the firearm we turned rifles and muskets into spears by the use of a bayonets, which are still issued to soldiers to this day.
My two pennies:
The SVT 40 is a better design as a firearm. Adjustable gas, box mag. The Germans and Fins loved them. BUT it was too complex for the solders it was designed for and was a bit light for combat conditions. The stocks had a a bit of a habit of breaking under hard use. Hence why the refurbished ones tend to have a heavier stock than original.
The Garand. The good: simpler than the SVT, more robust. The bad: heavy, 8 round clip vs 10 round mag.
The STG44. Can't really comment as I have no experience. However, I haven't heard anything particularly good or bad about them. Most German small arms tended to be pretty good so maybe.
My Pick. Garand. Worked best in its intended combat role. Was mass produced and issued in numbers to pretty much anyone who needed a rifle.
The SVT 40 is a better design as a firearm. Adjustable gas, box mag. The Germans and Fins loved them. BUT it was too complex for the solders it was designed for and was a bit light for combat conditions. The stocks had a a bit of a habit of breaking under hard use. Hence why the refurbished ones tend to have a heavier stock than original.
The Garand. The good: simpler than the SVT, more robust. The bad: heavy, 8 round clip vs 10 round mag.
The STG44. Can't really comment as I have no experience. However, I haven't heard anything particularly good or bad about them. Most German small arms tended to be pretty good so maybe.
My Pick. Garand. Worked best in its intended combat role. Was mass produced and issued in numbers to pretty much anyone who needed a rifle.
The SVT 40 is over hyped. Yes its a gorgeous gun, yes its a fun gun, and yes it may have been better then some other guns that were issue prior to that. But like already stated it had no shortage of problems. Dismal accuracy, unpredictable cold bore shots, finicky reliability, precarious disassembly, tedious to clean corrosive residue from. Ive owned 3 SVT 40s over the years and have never fired a M1 garand, but judging by what most owner and reviewers say about them, id much rather be issued one rather then a SVT 40.
I cant comment of the STG 44 . .
I cant comment of the STG 44 . .
I'd suggest that a catch-all-cure to VD/STI's would be at the top of the list.
Of that list, Garand.
SVT is too complicated and it really isn't worth it. I've bought 3 over the years and each time my reaction has been... Meh.
STG was great, but it's almost 12 pounds loaded. And it is more of a short to mid-range rifle.
Personally, I second the K98. But I love that rifle/cartridge...
SVT is too complicated and it really isn't worth it. I've bought 3 over the years and each time my reaction has been... Meh.
STG was great, but it's almost 12 pounds loaded. And it is more of a short to mid-range rifle.
Personally, I second the K98. But I love that rifle/cartridge...
Mightymoose410
Regular
- Location
- Beautiful Vancouver Island
Patton was wrong.
1) STG44
2) SVT40
3) Garrand
The STG44 is the "grandfather" of the "assault rifle". Hitler actually coined the term for propaganda. A lot of people are under the belief that it wasn't widely fielded. It was. Only predominantly on the Eastern front. It was field tested by parachute drop to an encircled German division. That German division armed up and fought their way through the Russian troops. It was said to have given them the equivalent of three divisions fire power. More importantly it was a change in philosophy and the infamous AK47/74 is based on it. Many gave me grief when I previously stated the obvious that the Russians copied it and put their own spin/design ideas on it to make the AK. kalashnikov himself a few years ago confirmed this after the huge amount of Russian propaganda denial.
The SVT40. Was first seen as the SVT38 that replaced the SVT36 (which was problem prone). The SVT38/40 was widely used against the Finns and Germans. Again another weapons mostly only seen on the Eastern front. It was relatively reliable in a day when the Germans couldn't get their semi auto rifles to work. They were captured and reissued to both Finn and German troops. The Germans designation was 259r for their captured and reissued SVT rifles. The Germans studied the gas system and it formed the system for their G43 rifle. Also of note is that the SVT40 uses the same operating system as the FN49 / FN FAL which as we all know went on to have the tittle of the "Right arm of the free world". There's debate about who designed the operating system first. It seems they came out around the same time independently. However the SVT was fielded during WWII.
The SVT40 has a 24" 1:10 twist barrel with a muzzle brake and adjustable gas system. It also has a releasable magazine. It was ahead of it's time and was meant to be the standard battle rifle of the Russian Army. The Russians, the Americans planned on having predominantly semi auto for the troops. The German invasion, poor troop training along with cost/time to manufacturer the SVT40 (I'm sure their enemies trying to capture as many as possible didn't help either) led to priority production going back to the Moisin nagant.
The Garand. My number 3 pick. It was reliable and it worked in a time when the allies really needed a reliable semi auto. So yes it played a big part in WWII. It was the first to be widely adopted by an army (Although the SVT40 was very close in time frame as well) After that the M14 and mini 14 are about all that has come from the design. It was really more of a bridge from bolt action to semi auto. The other two picks were far more advanced for the time. But in WWII as the Russians proved, less advanced, reliability, cheaper and easier to make along with far greater numbers often won the day over advanced arms. The Garand did the job. Historically it has it's place. However it wasn't the greatest battle implement ever devised. Fortunately allied troops infrequently ran into the other two on this list as they were mostly being used on the Eastern front.
1) STG44
2) SVT40
3) Garrand
The STG44 is the "grandfather" of the "assault rifle". Hitler actually coined the term for propaganda. A lot of people are under the belief that it wasn't widely fielded. It was. Only predominantly on the Eastern front. It was field tested by parachute drop to an encircled German division. That German division armed up and fought their way through the Russian troops. It was said to have given them the equivalent of three divisions fire power. More importantly it was a change in philosophy and the infamous AK47/74 is based on it. Many gave me grief when I previously stated the obvious that the Russians copied it and put their own spin/design ideas on it to make the AK. kalashnikov himself a few years ago confirmed this after the huge amount of Russian propaganda denial.
The SVT40. Was first seen as the SVT38 that replaced the SVT36 (which was problem prone). The SVT38/40 was widely used against the Finns and Germans. Again another weapons mostly only seen on the Eastern front. It was relatively reliable in a day when the Germans couldn't get their semi auto rifles to work. They were captured and reissued to both Finn and German troops. The Germans designation was 259r for their captured and reissued SVT rifles. The Germans studied the gas system and it formed the system for their G43 rifle. Also of note is that the SVT40 uses the same operating system as the FN49 / FN FAL which as we all know went on to have the tittle of the "Right arm of the free world". There's debate about who designed the operating system first. It seems they came out around the same time independently. However the SVT was fielded during WWII.
The SVT40 has a 24" 1:10 twist barrel with a muzzle brake and adjustable gas system. It also has a releasable magazine. It was ahead of it's time and was meant to be the standard battle rifle of the Russian Army. The Russians, the Americans planned on having predominantly semi auto for the troops. The German invasion, poor troop training along with cost/time to manufacturer the SVT40 (I'm sure their enemies trying to capture as many as possible didn't help either) led to priority production going back to the Moisin nagant.
The Garand. My number 3 pick. It was reliable and it worked in a time when the allies really needed a reliable semi auto. So yes it played a big part in WWII. It was the first to be widely adopted by an army (Although the SVT40 was very close in time frame as well) After that the M14 and mini 14 are about all that has come from the design. It was really more of a bridge from bolt action to semi auto. The other two picks were far more advanced for the time. But in WWII as the Russians proved, less advanced, reliability, cheaper and easier to make along with far greater numbers often won the day over advanced arms. The Garand did the job. Historically it has it's place. However it wasn't the greatest battle implement ever devised. Fortunately allied troops infrequently ran into the other two on this list as they were mostly being used on the Eastern front.
Last edited:
Blastattack
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Winnipeg MB
Honestly the greatest battle implement ever devised was probably the aircraft carrier. It single handedly made everything bigger than a destroyer obsolete. An aircraft carrier can provide excellent air superiority, excellent scouting, excellent ground attack and excellent anti shipping capability. An aircraft carrier allows you to strike any target many times beyond the horizon, and place ordnance more accurately than any gun ever could. Plus, your mobile airfield can pop up anywhere you want it to. Properly equipped planes could strike any target in the world without having to conduct one way trips or reduce bomb load to carry more fuel.
Owned and shot all 3 rifles.
I much prefer the Garand because of the superior sights.
The SVT and STG are both cheaper to make, so that would be in their favour.
The STG shoots a smaller round, but the rifle itself is a bit of a pig. The SKS is a much better fit to the smaller cartridge.
I much prefer the Garand because of the superior sights.
The SVT and STG are both cheaper to make, so that would be in their favour.
The STG shoots a smaller round, but the rifle itself is a bit of a pig. The SKS is a much better fit to the smaller cartridge.
You probably know this but in the harsh Winter of 42/43 the German armies previously assaulting Stalingrad got totally encircled by Soviet forces. The Germans found themselves within what they called the "cauldron" of Stalingrad. The 600,000 trapped troops ran out of food and other provisions and many froze to death. It fell to the Luftwaffe to drop much-needed supplies, but that became a dark farce as planes often crashed and even carried incorrect cargo. There are accounts of German planes mistakenly transporting bundles of cellophane, heaps of ground pepper, and even a huge condom shipment to the warzone. Even supposed "treats" went awry, with a consignment of fine wine freezing in the harsh winter and erupting in their bottles.
For whatever reason Hermann Göring may have agreed with you that the French Tickler might be the greatest battle implement ever devised. ...Or maybe he just thought that they were having a big party down there.
Gele Donut
Regular
There is no discussion because the clear answer if we are limiting it to firearms only is the AK-47 it was adopted by something like 70 countries and has been involved in just about every conflict on Earth from the day it was invented and they are cheap and reliable and simple enough for an illiterate conscript. It can argued that they aren't the most sophisticated or accurate but a battle rifle isn't a precision rifle it just needs to throw bullets reliably and hit a man sized target and that gives the win to the AK-47.
Gele Donut
Regular
The AK-47 was inspired/based on the STG44 so it counts and was much more successful than any of the three choices we were given to pick from.
I'm going to give you more grief Epoxy7 and Gele Donut..... This is not directed at you guys but more the idea that the Soviets post-WW2 couldn't invent/design a new rifle. Especially Kalashnikov, originally a simple soldier at first. But definitely mechanically inclined by working on several SMG designs, a replacement for the DP LMG and even trying to design a rifle in the SKS trials. Suffice to say he had some experience in working on firearm designs, and not just a mindless peasant that copied a STG-44.
These 2 blogs basically layout the case for why the AK-47 isn't a copy of the STG-44
Tanksarchive, Schmeisser vs Kalashnikov
The firearms blog: Rifle Paternity Test: Pinning Down The M1 Garand’s Influence On The AK
TL;DR Garand had a large influence on the AK design from the rotating bolt, and trigger assembly. Earlier Soviet rifle designs such as the SVT-40 have certain recognizable components/design influences on the AK-47 development.
- Status
