Advice for extreme long-range cartridge

[saunders278]

Hey everyone,

Looking for some advice on my next project, this will be an expensive one and probably won't begin for a year or so.

A little background, I've been shooting my whole life, but have only gotten serious about it in the last 2 years (I’m especially loving the long-range stuff), and I do reload. I’m getting more consistent at 1000 m with my Tikka 6.5CM, and I’ll continue with this rifle to see how far I can stretch it.

I eventually want to get into some extreme long-range shooting, so I want to start thinking about an appropriate cartridge for a custom build, I'm hoping to keep it under $5000 (before optic).

This rifle will be used on steel at as long of distances as possible (I think 1 mile would be a reasonable goal to start, but I have every intention of eventually getting to 2K and beyond).

I'm a fan of the 7mm Rem Mag, but I'm leaning towards the 338 Lapua Magnum. Although I have no experience with this cartridge, I've read it's pretty capable at the longer ranges compared to the 7mm (but with a significant increase in recoil and cost of ammo components). Considering my goal, however, I'll take any advantage I can get (even if my wallet and shoulder have to suffer).

Then there are the 375 and 400+ calibers that I see the pros using. I haven’t seriously considered these because of the high costs and low availability of components, but I'll take any input on those as well.

All advice is appreciated. My first order of business is to decide on the cartridge and projectile, but I'd be happy to hear input on actions, barrels, stocks, optics (leaning toward Vortex Razor Gen II), or any other comments, advice, or recommended readings.

Thanks

 

[mildot]

You may want to do some research into Hornady 300 PRC and 6.5 PRC, albeit shorter barrel life, but it's my understanding the Hornady 300 PRC is the first completely computer engineered cartridge?
Good Luck.

 

[kthomas]

For the ranges you are talking about, I would strongly consider starting with something like the .300NM. For this you will need an action with a .338LM bolt face. The .300NM is very capable to 2000 yards and more. It's very forgiving to load for and seems to be pretty inherently accurate. Easy to achieve low SD's and a load easily capable of 1/2 MOA or better. Personally I believe the .300NM is a better ELR cartridge then the .338LM. The ballistics are every bit as good, with less recoil and the ability to mag feed even the longest OAL of loads. There's Lapua brass available for it, and lots of great .30 cal projectiles, though most are using the 215 and 230 grain Bergers. The new Hornady A-tip options will become a popular choice for this cartridge as well I would guess. There's also a few solid projectiles available in .30 if you want to squeek out every bit of ballistic performance, but for those I would recommend a tight twist and a shorter freebore for your chamber, so the bullets aren't jumping a metric mile. You will have to decide before you get the barrel spun up if you are going with jacketed or solid bullets (which is a whole other conversation), to optimize the chamber for the projectile.

Once you burn out a barrel or two and get comfortable at really long ranges and want to extend your distances even further, you can then get a barrel spun up in 33XC or 37XC. These cartridges use actions with the .338LM bolt face, so you can build off of the same action, avoiding the big expense of going to a cheytac size cartridge, but with pretty much the same performance. A disadvantage to the XC cartridges is that you would have to single feed them in a .338LM action. Not a huge deal breaker IMO for extreme ELR shooting, most are single feeding anyways in that discipline. Having the XC cartridges available makes the .338LM action a desirable ELR action to build off of, now that the performance ceiling has been raised to almost cheytac levels.

While you can definitely take a short action cartridge out to a mile and beyond (myself and many others have done so), it's ballistically limiting once you get past a mile, and not desirable for the 2,000+ yard shooting you want to grow into. If you want to stick with a standard magnum bolt face, the .300 PRC is a nice choice. However, with this action you have a ballistic glass ceiling, without having the XC cartridges available. Once you grow past the capabilities of the .300 PRC, you are stuck with the costs of building a whole new rifle.

For actions, the Defiance Deviant is a good choice in the .338LM bolt face. I have one for my .300NM build, with polished rails and IonBonded surface treatment. I love it, its a great action and you can order it in almost any configuration you can think of. Barrels I recommend the top tier brands: Krieger, Bartlein, Hawkhill, Benchmark, Brux, Rock Creek - these brands have a great track record, benchrest records, the skillset, machines and QA/QC processes that you don't get with the smaller and less experienced shops. Stocks and chassis's are pretty personal preference. For scopes, look for a scope with good elevation adjustments and a christmas tree type reticle. My .300NM has a Khales K624i with the AMR reticle - IMO the AMR reticle is about the perfect ELR reticle. Nightforce and S&B are other obvious choices as well. A christmas tree type reticle is desirable as you have the built in elevation in the reticle that you will have to utilize once you start shooting past the elevation capabilities of the turret.

 

[furtaker]

7 SAUM on a long action and run the 180 bergers. 2000 yard capable no issues. 300 win does everything for steel to 2000 as well. If you had to jump to a lapua bolt face 300 NORMA is far more fun to shoot compared to the 338 lapua and superior to it in a lot of ways. Just my 2 cents

 

[Mystic Precision]

Lots of ways to skin this cat.... you can go big... or you don't have to. I am lucky that all of this and more is in my 'backyard' and enjoyed what you want to do for many years.

as they say, been there, tried that...

If you want a big boomer, awesome... lots of very solid options. If you prefer effecient, lots of great options there too.

My current 'small' plinker is a 22 CM.... a 30-06 has tested very well with a new project stock waiting to be finished. Finished testing a 6.5-284 beyond 1 mile.

I prefer efficient... but I shoot with those who want BIG.

It's all good fun. But I guess the first question is how far do you think your 6.5 CM can reach?

Jerry

 

[8x68]

7mm STW might be a consideration.

 

[HuskyDude]

Should watch some of Marks vid...he does okay.

 

[JDunmore]

the 7mm norm mag or the 300 lapua mag would be my choice

 

[Trevor60]

There are several reason to choose the 338 Lapua over 300 NM or PRC. most boil down to components and barrel life (how much and often you will shoot)
Hit detection is a consideration when you DON'T hit the plate and need to see the splash

Here an example to focus on the caliber and not specifically the rifle.
http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2019/08/watch-randy-wise-set-elr-world-record-on-video/

These are dedicated rifle systems, here is an excellent rifle build to get the wheels turning
https://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/tag/paul-phillips/

Trevor

 

[sidester]

338 lapua Magnum.

 

[dusticles]

300 Norma! Lapua brass and it catches up and passes the 338 LM at 2000yds...

 

[saunders278]

Once you burn out a barrel or two and get comfortable at really long ranges and want to extend your distances even further, you can then get a barrel spun up in 33XC or 37XC. These cartridges use actions with the .338LM bolt face, so you can build off of the same action, avoiding the big expense of going to a cheytac size cartridge, but with pretty much the same performance. A disadvantage to the XC cartridges is that you would have to single feed them in a .338LM action. Not a huge deal breaker IMO for extreme ELR shooting, most are single feeding anyways in that discipline. Having the XC cartridges available makes the .338LM action a desirable ELR action to build off of, now that the performance ceiling has been raised to almost cheytac levels.

Good advice, the idea is to get an action that will give me a lot of good options when it comes time to rebarrel and I have a better idea of what I'm doing (probably should have mentioned that in the OP). So the initial chambering isn't even super important as long as the action can be used going forward (I doubt the specific cartridge will be what's holding me back to begin with, whether it's 300WM, 300NM, 338LM).

I've never even heard of 33XC and 37XC, I'll look into those. I wouldn't mind single-feeding into this one, I hear you gain some rigidity without a mag system.

I'll definitely do more research into 300NM, I hadn't considered this one. Just so I'm clear 300NM, 338LM, 33XC, and 37XC all share the same bolt face?

 

[saunders278]

Lots of ways to skin this cat.... you can go big... or you don't have to. I am lucky that all of this and more is in my 'backyard' and enjoyed what you want to do for many years.

as they say, been there, tried that...

If you want a big boomer, awesome... lots of very solid options. If you prefer effecient, lots of great options there too.

My current 'small' plinker is a 22 CM.... a 30-06 has tested very well with a new project stock waiting to be finished. Finished testing a 6.5-284 beyond 1 mile.

I prefer efficient... but I shoot with those who want BIG.

It's all good fun. But I guess the first question is how far do you think your 6.5 CM can reach?

Jerry

Nice yard you have there.

I'm sure my 6.5 can go much further than I'm pushing it now, it will be my designated competition gun when I get into PRS-style comps (not many going on in BC, it seems, but that's another conversation).

But for this project I'm looking for a projectile that will remain supersonic and/or stable as far as possible. I can't really put a number on my goal because I really don't know what's possible yet for a non-pro on a working man's salary.

I love my 6.5 and I see that cartridge can do well a long ways out (thanks for that "Mark and Sam Afterwork" video HuskyDude), but for this build I want something that will give me every advantage I can get, and something I can work with going forward as my skills/knowledge progress.

Thanks for all the advice so far. Although I love 7mm projectiles and have lots of experience with them, it seems the general consensus is 300NM and 338LM.

Keep it coming please!

 

[kthomas]

Yes, .300NM, .338LM, 33XC and 37XC all utilize the same bolt face and thus action.

David Tubb designed the big XC cartridges for pretty much the exact purpose you are seeking. You get the ballistic capabilities of a Cheytac but in a smaller and more cost effective system.

Because of the options of the big XC cartridges, going with a .338LM bolt face and action really opens up your options for ELR shooting. You can start smaller with the .300NM (or .338 LM if that's your preference) and work your way up to the XC cartridges once you feel the need for more ballistic steam.

 

[caver77]

.338 lm or edge, deviant action, bartlein barrel maybe, ai stock, atacr for elevation or minox for value. Or 375 chey...

 

[Mystic Precision]

Nice yard you have there.

I'm sure my 6.5 can go much further than I'm pushing it now, it will be my designated competition gun when I get into PRS-style comps (not many going on in BC, it seems, but that's another conversation).

But for this project I'm looking for a projectile that will remain supersonic and/or stable as far as possible. I can't really put a number on my goal because I really don't know what's possible yet for a non-pro on a working man's salary.

I love my 6.5 and I see that cartridge can do well a long ways out (thanks for that "Mark and Sam Afterwork" video HuskyDude), but for this build I want something that will give me every advantage I can get, and something I can work with going forward as my skills/knowledge progress.

Thanks for all the advice so far. Although I love 7mm projectiles and have lots of experience with them, it seems the general consensus is 300NM and 338LM.

Keep it coming please!

Well, there are quite a few PRS style matches in BC now. There are going to be a centerfire and rimfire match at Heffley Creek Oct 5, and 6th. Mission Action rimfire match is happening the weekend after. The CRPS western Finale is happening last weekend of Oct. There might be a BCPRL match towards Whistler?

This season there was a match (or more) every month from March til Oct. As long as you can run rimfire or centerfire, there is plenty to keep you busy. Then of course, you can travel to AB or WA, OR, ID, MT, etc, etc, etc. From BC, we can access a match almost every weekend all year long... SO.....

WRT to running costs, that is a decision only you can make. Me, I put alot of lead downrange when I go play. If you run the numbers of a 338LM vs a 308 Win or 6.5 CM or 22 CM or 6 BR or even the lowly 223, HUGE difference per bang.

I get that you are all caught up in the paper ballistics and glamor of big horsepower..... and if you were competing and really wanted an edge at the very furthest distances you would encounter, bigger can help a lot.

for general LR fun out to 1mile+, it will not make a spit of difference. Proper load tuning and set up will matter a whole lot more then launching the biggest bullet badly. Big cases can be much harder to tune and set up. The big mondo super high BC bullets can be a royal PITA to set up.

With todays new gen bullets, smaller doesn't even mean big amounts of drift either... but then you actually need to shoot this stuff in the real world to see the difference.

If you want big and can afford big, let's go... but if the point is to have fun and stretch the shooting budget, there are plenty of excellent ways to do that and will not cost you anymore then what you are spending now. Just a better/different set up and of course, optics with a crap ton of travel.

last time out, my buddy was using his 408CT at around $7 per bang (might have been more?), my ammo was under $1 per bang. We both had a great time, hit the same targets at 1450yds with similar hit rates... I just held a little further for the wind.

YMMV.

Jerry

 

[kthomas]

1450 yards is nothing for a .408 CT, so I agree that for those ranges, a short action cartridge is perfectly capable. I am not surprised that a .22 CM kept up with a .408 CT at 1450 yards. I've taken a factory ruger RPR .223 out to those distances very successfully in minimal wind. I wouldn't suggest to anyone that they would need a .408 CT for 1450 yards, or really anything inside 2,500 yards.

For a mile and in, a short action cartridge is certainly capable. I've taken a 6.5 Creedmoor out to 2,200 yards successfully, and gotten a few first and second round hits on targets at a mile with it (all with factory ammo no less). I know people that have taken 6mm's out to 2,400 yards successfully. A short action cartridge is a great tool for a mile and in, and you really start to learn about wind drift and ballistics when you do it with a short action cartridge. I fully encourage people to stretch the limits on a short action cartridge, it's a lot of fun and you can learn a lot. Short action cartridges have a lot more effective range than most people give them credit for, but past ~1,900 yards, the 6.5 creedmoor really started to drop off and there was a rapid decay in the ballistics.

That said, with the OP's goal of wanting to go 2,000+ yards, a short action cartridge isn't a great nor the best choice. The wind can really start ripping you around, and spotting misses can be difficult if not completely impossible in some cases. It can make for a pretty frustrating experience, and a waste of money when pulling the trigger if you don't know where your rounds are going. Not all shooting locations are going to put up huge dust signatures to help with spotting misses, and those short action cartridges start losing a lot of energy past a mile. Each trigger pull may cost less, but it may very well take 5-10 shots to figure out where you are hitting, when it only would've taken one shot with a .300NM. In some scenarios, it may actually make more fiscal sense to shoot a bigger more expensive cartridge.

If the OP is really serious about 2,000+ shooting, I believe his goals would be better served with a bigger cartridge then a 6.5 creedmoor. Certainly it can be done, I've done it. But doesn't necessarily make it the best choice. Just some considerations for the OP. While shooting ELR with short action cartridges are really fun, there certainly are some limitations. But I think we both illuminate some great points for the OP to consider.

If budget is the ultimate concern, get a rimfire .22 and try your hand at 500+ yards. That's also ELR shooting. But I don't think budget is the main driving criteria.

 

[saunders278]

Well, there are quite a few PRS style matches in BC now. There are going to be a centerfire and rimfire match at Heffley Creek Oct 5, and 6th. Mission Action rimfire match is happening the weekend after. The CRPS western Finale is happening last weekend of Oct. There might be a BCPRL match towards Whistler?

This season there was a match (or more) every month from March til Oct. As long as you can run rimfire or centerfire, there is plenty to keep you busy. Then of course, you can travel to AB or WA, OR, ID, MT, etc, etc, etc. From BC, we can access a match almost every weekend all year long... SO.....

WRT to running costs, that is a decision only you can make. Me, I put alot of lead downrange when I go play. If you run the numbers of a 338LM vs a 308 Win or 6.5 CM or 22 CM or 6 BR or even the lowly 223, HUGE difference per bang.

I get that you are all caught up in the paper ballistics and glamor of big horsepower..... and if you were competing and really wanted an edge at the very furthest distances you would encounter, bigger can help a lot.

for general LR fun out to 1mile+, it will not make a spit of difference. Proper load tuning and set up will matter a whole lot more then launching the biggest bullet badly. Big cases can be much harder to tune and set up. The big mondo super high BC bullets can be a royal PITA to set up.

With todays new gen bullets, smaller doesn't even mean big amounts of drift either... but then you actually need to shoot this stuff in the real world to see the difference.

If you want big and can afford big, let's go... but if the point is to have fun and stretch the shooting budget, there are plenty of excellent ways to do that and will not cost you anymore then what you are spending now. Just a better/different set up and of course, optics with a crap ton of travel.

last time out, my buddy was using his 408CT at around $7 per bang (might have been more?), my ammo was under $1 per bang. We both had a great time, hit the same targets at 1450yds with similar hit rates... I just held a little further for the wind.

YMMV.

Jerry

Thanks, Jerry. I did hear about the Heffley Creek match, I'm definitely going to try to make that one (as a surveyor I spend a lot of time out of town May-October, which can make it hard to plan for events). I haven't heard of those other ones though, I'll have a look for sure.

I hear what you're saying about going with a smaller, more affordable cartridge, but I have no intention of letting my Tikka 6.5 CM collect dust. In fact, this will be my chief long-range gun going forward. I've got a McMillan A3-5 on order, and once I burn out this barrel I'll be upgrading to something really nice (maybe a new caliber?). I'm sure I'll always be shooting it far more than whatever large magnum I end up building.

Side question: anyone know of any good trigger upgrades or action blueprinting options for a Tikka T3x CTR?

Anyways, I'm with you on the short action long-range shooting, I'm loving it. I'm just thinking ahead to my next project (I probably won't even start ordering parts for at least a year). I just want to get a head start on the research so I make the right decision when the time comes.

I've just about got all the guns I need (I'm sure I'll be saying that in 20 years too). But one thing that's missing from my safe is a long-range magnum, AND I JUST WANT ONE, ALRIGHT!!!!!

BTW, I haven't said much about price. I said $5000 in the OP, but I'd be willing to pay more if it seems like I'll get worthwhile returns. I used to buy lots of cheap guns (and end up selling them), now I have 7-8 carefully chosen guns that I actually shoot. Same deal with ammo costs, I'll be reloading with quality components, but I'd like to avoid paying $2 per piece of brass if possible.

Thanks everyone.

 

[kthomas]

Yo-dave makes a spring kit for the Tikka trigger which makes for a nicer trigger/lighter trigger pull. If you are interested in changing out the entire trigger, KRG makes one for Tikka that has great reviews. Timney makes one, as well as Bix n Andy. The BnA is definitely the most expensive of the bunch, but they do make some excellent triggers.

 

[Mystic Precision]

Thanks, Jerry. I did hear about the Heffley Creek match, I'm definitely going to try to make that one (as a surveyor I spend a lot of time out of town May-October, which can make it hard to plan for events). I haven't heard of those other ones though, I'll have a look for sure.

I hear what you're saying about going with a smaller, more affordable cartridge, but I have no intention of letting my Tikka 6.5 CM collect dust. In fact, this will be my chief long-range gun going forward. I've got a McMillan A3-5 on order, and once I burn out this barrel I'll be upgrading to something really nice (maybe a new caliber?). I'm sure I'll always be shooting it far more than whatever large magnum I end up building.

Side question: anyone know of any good trigger upgrades or action blueprinting options for a Tikka T3x CTR?

Anyways, I'm with you on the short action long-range shooting, I'm loving it. I'm just thinking ahead to my next project (I probably won't even start ordering parts for at least a year). I just want to get a head start on the research so I make the right decision when the time comes.

I've just about got all the guns I need (I'm sure I'll be saying that in 20 years too). But one thing that's missing from my safe is a long-range magnum, AND I JUST WANT ONE, ALRIGHT!!!!!

BTW, I haven't said much about price. I said $5000 in the OP, but I'd be willing to pay more if it seems like I'll get worthwhile returns. I used to buy lots of cheap guns (and end up selling them), now I have 7-8 carefully chosen guns that I actually shoot. Same deal with ammo costs, I'll be reloading with quality components, but I'd like to avoid paying $2 per piece of brass if possible.

Thanks everyone.

A year from now.... then I would just wait. At the rate things are changing, much of what we are talking about now will be very old news. By then we could all be swooning over some polymer cored 8mm super slug or some wifi enabled 45 cal finned dagger... very smart people have decided 2 miles is a fun distance to start from. The trickle down is going to be super exciting.

If you are concerned about $2 per case, I think you might want to put the couture magnum project on hold for a wee bit... or go old school

FYI, Todays price on Lapua 338LM is just over $4 per case before ship and tax.

408 CT brass is cheaper at under $3.50 per case before ship and tax... in bulk.

Lapua 300NM is well over your budget... hell, 6.5X47L brass is over a $1.50 each.

As I said, figure out what your running budget is before worrying too much about the rifle. You will quickly find that anything new and fancy is going to cost alot more to run. Old boring cases like the 7RM and 300Win mag and variants off these are WAAAYYYY less money. Even the RUM has gotten some pricey

There are strong economic reasons to stay in the Creedmoor family... if the goal is to shoot a bunch.

There are many good reasons why my current up to 2000yd rig is a 30-06.... it was supposed to be a 30-338win mag but the ELR ballistics were very surprising so I just didn't see the point.

If you are interested in a Timney for your Tikka, send me a pm or email.

Jerry