Why didn't the Germans used captured Lee-Enfields?

steelgray

steelgray

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The Brits lost huge numbers of Lee-Enfields and 303 British ammo at Dunkirk. Many more of these guns - and related ammo - fell into German hands in other settings.

The Germans were famous for pressing captured weapons and equipment into their own use use - even printing German-language SVT-40 manuals and manufacturing 7.62X54R ammo to equip their own troops with SVT-40s. Why didn't the Germans use captured Lee-Enfields? What happened to all those captured Lee-Enfields from Dunkirk and otherwise?
 
tiriaq said:
They did. Germany made use of a wide variety of captured arms. Second line/auxiliary issue.
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I've never seen any photographic evidence of this except for a scant picture or two of group scenes of rag-tag home guard groups - photos taken in the dying days of WW2. Other foreign weapons were used widely by front-line troops shortly after such guns were captured.
 
steelgray said:
I've never seen any photographic evidence of this except for a scant picture or two of group scenes of rag-tag home guard groups - photos taken in the dying days of WW2. Other foreign weapons were used widely by front-line troops shortly after such guns were captured.
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The Germans didn't capture the means of ammo production. With French, Italian, Soviet weapons ammo factories were captured. Also one of the good things about Dunkirk was that most riflemen brought their rifle out with them or at least lost it while swimming.
 
My own guess is that the Germans didn't particularly like the gun and didn't foresee themselves on a course leading to a long war of attrition. If these L-Es had been retained in stores or re-issued - in any significant numbers - they might have eventually been recaptured by the Allies and perhaps returned to their inventory - during or at the end of the war. There isn't any evidence of this.

I think these guns were destroyed - perhaps with the steel recovered and recycled - to make German-pattern guns. The brass, lead and maybe even the powder from 303 British rounds might have also been recycled into German ammo but, again, this is just speculation. It is odd that there is so little information about this.
 
THESEUS said:
Probably to do with ammunition availability/manufacture
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I'm not sure about that. This reference says that at Dunkirk the Germans captured "76,097 tons of ammunition and 416,940 tons of stores" Not all of the ammo was 303 British and the Brits left behind 8,000 Bren guns - also in 303 British. Even so, there should have been lots of 303 British available (per gun) for those L-E guns lost; especially if you believe the person who suggest that many L-E guns were evacuated.
 
They used the Dunkirk ammo, German sources list not just 303, but British 7,92X57 and Boys ammo as well. Micke's book on captured ammunition even shows where the Germans were looking at converting LEs to take mauser bayonets. It was already in France, so you might as well leave it there, it would have made no sense in 40/41/42 to ship it to the East.
As mentioned the Germans never took a British ammo factory, so it was more of a use what you found deal with the 303 stuff, but the Brit 8mm Mauser could be used in the German supply chain.
 
Just because YOU have never seen it doesn't mean anything. Don't become a quoting textbook, textbooks are sometimes wrong especially BBOTW, and so are Know It Alls.

steelgray said:
I've never seen any photographic evidence of this except for a scant picture or two of group scenes of rag-tag home guard groups - photos taken in the dying days of WW2. Other foreign weapons were used widely by front-line troops shortly after such guns were captured.
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steelgray said:
I'm not sure about that. This reference says that at Dunkirk the Germans captured "76,097 tons of ammunition and 416,940 tons of stores" Not all of the ammo was 303 British and the Brits left behind 8,000 Bren guns - also in 303 British. Even so, there should have been lots of 303 British available (per gun) for those L-E guns lost; especially if you believe the person who suggest that many L-E guns were evacuated.
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Damn that's a lot of kaboom, someone should have blown stuff up
 
Coyote Ugly said:
Just because YOU have never seen it doesn't mean anything. Don't become a quoting textbook, textbooks are sometimes wrong especially BBOTW, and so are Know It Alls.
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If you are calling me a 'Know It All", you're off the mark. As I have said I don't know the answer and am asking... Also as I have noted, there doesn't seem to be a lot of references in this area so where are you going with your comment about quoting textbooks?
 
Good question.I use to be into Balkan part of WW2 and I don't recall reading of a single instance of any side using LE or anything British handed from Germans.

Croat forces used a lot of obsolete equipment when fighting Tito's partisans but even they didn't use 303 of LE.Neither did Bulgarians afaik.

Any chance Turks bough all of it from Germans?Maybe traded it for some raw material?

Edit-if Tito's partisans used any Brit small arms it would have come from air drops in late part of the war.
 
From; https://www.quora.com/Did-the-Germa...d-or-Lee-Enfield-in-any-considerable-quantity

Lee-Enfield rifles were used by the Volksturm in 1944–5. The Rifle No.1 Mk.III was designated the 7.7mm Gewehr 281(e).

The Bren Gun was the 7.7mm Leichtes MG 138(e).

The 7.92x57mm rifles were reserved for front line troops, the occupation forces got what was left over or captured.

The postures of the use of captured equipment are there, but you have to look, and do a lot of reading.

For example, captured French tanks were used in Yugoslavia for anti partisan control.

Germans in French Hotchkiss H 38 tank occupy Split, Yugoslavia after Italian surrender, September 1943.[666x463]

https://www.reddit.com/r/History####/comments/287zg9/germans_in_french_hotchkiss_h_38_tank_occupy/
 
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sail32 said:
German designations of foreign firearms in World War II

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_designations_of_foreign_firearms_in_World_War_II
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This is a great list with one BOO BOO that I can see. It has the SVT-40 designated twice, once as the Selbstladegewehr 259(r) and again as theSelbstladegewehr 259/2(r). In fact Selbstladegewehr 259(r) is the standard length SVT-40 and Selbstladegewehr 259(r) was the German designation for the carbine version of the SVT-40 pattern, specifically called the SKT-40 or sometimes the CKT-40. You will also see teh Germans call the SKT-40 the SiGewehr 259/2(r) which is stand for the "Shortened SVT-40". Accordingly to @GermanSoldier book. "D50/1 Kennblätter Fremden Geräts" 1 Handwaffen". However the correct German designation is Selbstladegewehr 259/2(r) - "Tokarew" 40 verkürzt. The SKT-40 generally had a barrel 200mm shorter that the SVT40 and corresponding different stock work and a shorter gas system.

33979.jpg
 
MbGunny said:
That is awesome info!! I have never heard of a SKT-40
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Actually there were both factory produced and field conversion SKT-40s the factory and wartime conversions of the SVT 40. You might want to refer to this link.

http://www.mosinnagant.net/ussr/svt401.asp

There are many other references of this type on the web.

SVT CARBINE INFO.JPG


When the Russian Army approved of the Carbine variant of the SVT-40 and when that went into production Fed Tokarev would have been pleased because he seems to have always envisaged this gun and its precedcessor the SVT-38 as having a shorter barrels. It is clear that most/ all of Federov Tokarev's prototypes, for these rifles, envisaged a handy carbine length rifle.

See http://www.kalashnikov.ru/medialibrary/2a0/v-raznyh-variantah.pdf

also see this:

early Tokarev designs ombined v2.jpg


However, I believe that the Army ended-up saying (in Russian) - "decent design you got there Fed, but we will only accept it if you give it a really goofy long barrel". The thinking could have been were paying for that propellant - let's go with a barrel that will use all of it. Besides, Russia is a wide country - with lots of open spaces. Why not do everything possible to maximize the range of the firearm?

Those arguments had their day but didn't account for the firearm's eventual use in close quarters fighting in Stalingrad, Leningrad and ... finally Berlin. By late 41, the need for a carbine-length SVT-40 had been established and an APPROVED SKT-40 design had been authorized by the Army for production (as had been an early carbine version of the SVT-38) Some FACTORY SKT-40 guns were produced before German advances required that factory 318 be relocated (IIRC). Subsequent field cuts also can be seen as an attempt to undo the impracticalities of the crazy long barreled SVT-40 - as mandate by the Army.

Here is Here's that picture of a Soviet soldier holding an SKT-40 (A.K.A SVT-40 carbine) in 1942 (source http://www.kalashnikov.ru/medialibrary/2a0/v-raznyh-variantah.pdf"]))

skt-40 in 1942.JPG



I have also heard stories that Marstar imported a good number of these - and the '90s sound's right. There are reports that about half of the guns in one delivery to Marstar were the carbine variant of the SVT-40.
 
You're mixing up THE ONLY credible recent research of Ruslan Chumak, published in his book and in Kalashnikov magazine with outdated sites full of incorrect information and fantasies without any single fact. As I mentioned earlier - your carbine is not authentic, and there are no (known to collectors) carbines outside of museum and museums have only trial specimens.
As for Marstar - former owner has a reputation here and apart of other things he was also bragging about bringing batch of SVT snipers and then he said he resold them all abroad...
 
steelgray said:
My own guess is that the Germans didn't particularly like the gun and didn't foresee themselves on a course leading to a long war of attrition. If these L-Es had been retained in stores or re-issued - in any significant numbers - they might have eventually been recaptured by the Allies and perhaps returned to their inventory - during or at the end of the war. There isn't any evidence of this.

I think these guns were destroyed - perhaps with the steel recovered and recycled - to make German-pattern guns. The brass, lead and maybe even the powder from 303 British rounds might have also been recycled into German ammo but, again, this is just speculation. It is odd that there is so little information about this.
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I would.doubt the propellant in 303 ball would.be compatible. Dunkirk troops could have easily been shooting surplus from WW1.
 
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