Magnum overkill. Over bore calibers on medium game

Worst for me would have to be 270 vs squirrel. When I was a kid my buds would laugh at me for using 270 for yotes, but that's all I had that'd reach out. It liked the cheap 130gr Winchester PP at $12.99 a box.
I don't think 458wm is too much for black bear, might find out this spring. I've taken all of mine with 2 quick shots from a Win m94 (30-30) over a bait. 2 quick shots because it's fun, and I don't like tracking a wounded bear, they all dropped right there.
My go to gun is an older Savage 7mm RM. However, I'm planning to put a better scope, get some dies, and make "nowarningshot"s old 338WM my go to gun.......very nice.
Thanks again..lol

Still rubbing it in. "Sileeenccce i keeeel you".

Actually the 338 wm Abolt is no meat destroying cannon.....185gr-300gr. Mice to Moose. Like all calibers over .308, reloading helps with ammo cost. A 185gr is effectively a 308 nm, 260 round nose for Moose or Gbear in the alders, slick high bc bullet for as long a range large game animal as most should shoot.

If i was having to choose just one, it would be 338 wm. But i have about 8 larger than 30-06.

The most meat damage i have seen are poor shot placement and high speed......say 2900ft/sec and up, blood bubbles. More trimmings, and a happy Rottweiler.
 
My over bore story from Aus would consist of my New at the Time M77 .35 Whelen......
On the back of a mates farm and we found some Fallow Deer, a stalk up through the bush and I put the first shot on game toward the Fallow, a spike buck..
over bore but none the less a .358 hole in an out

have seen a couple of Foxes by 338 win mag now days too whilst in the hills :D
 
Between my son and I, we hunt with only magnum chambered rifles, with the exception of one 270 Win. Many years ago we were under-gunned when a big beautiful buck stepped-out at 500 yards. After that hunting season we were prepared with flat shooting magnum chambered rifles, just in case big boy steps out at that 500 yard distance. Fast and flat, more downrange energy is key for that long distance shot, the rest is up to us. We are trophy deer hunters and we're not disappointed this passed hunting season with our over-bored rifles. The 7mm STW did it's job quite well.
https://imgur.com/a/2nG5TTP
 
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Not much to add, but to echo that a good moderately tough game bullet won't destroy smaller game as bad as some think. High speed and frangible bullets wreck meat.

Take a lot of grouse with 30-30, 6.5x55, 45-70... Rabbit with 7.62x39. All about shot placement and bullet construction. Depending on how big it is, you'll probably want the bullet to open up slightly unless you are used a good flat nose; then it's not really needed. Read a good article years back, and heard from others that really like using a 375 H&H, and have no issues shooting a little doe with it.
 
There is no such thing as over gunned, over bored or over powered.

There is however selecting the wrong bullet for the intended game/use.

If you are complaining of meat damage you are using an incorrect bullet, no penetration incorrect bullet, no expansion/no damage , incorrect bullet.

In this equation should be intended target(soft/hard/small/large) and a general idea of what velocity you are impacting said target at.

A 25/06 will make a tremendous mess with a ballistic tip on gamer at high velocity(high speed fragile) , use a 300WM with a bonded or partition (high speed strong)and you will see much less damage.It all about projectile selection relative to speed.
 
I quit using my Win 71 on whitetails, .348 silvertips made a mess. To a point: Butcher comes up to me and says: 'You know I didn't keep any meat but a lot of it was destroyed....'. Too bad ,the nicest carrying rifle I own.
 
I quit using my Win 71 on whitetails, .348 silvertips made a mess. To a point: Butcher comes up to me and says: 'You know I didn't keep any meat but a lot of it was destroyed....'. Too bad ,the nicest carrying rifle I own.

I have seen a lot of deer taken with .348's and none of them were "messed up." I have taken deer with .358 Win, .35 Whelen, .375 H&H, .405, .45/120 etc... none of them were messed up... certainly less damage than a 7mm Rem Mag.
 
I quit using my Win 71 on whitetails, .348 silvertips made a mess. To a point: Butcher comes up to me and says: 'You know I didn't keep any meat but a lot of it was destroyed....'. Too bad ,the nicest carrying rifle I own.

Yeah, too bad, because what you had was a bullet problem that could be solved very easily.
 
The guy that probably should be chiming in is Ardent. African doubles as backup rifles, guiding coastal Grizzly. Believe Pounder has my rifles twin, with a docked barrel, but he lives in Churchill and deals commonly with Polar Bear.

Just so everyone understands, i am a proponent of no such thing as too large. An animal should be taken with one good hit. Regardless of angle. What is the commonly held number of energy for Deer....believe its 1000 lbs. Not in front of me, but i believe my Rum is between 5-6000 lbs. So i would imagine its still ahead of 308 win/muzzle at 3-400 yards. The real limiting issue is hunter accuracy. Can you take the recoil and make an accurate shot. Most hit the top end of their tolerance around 30-06/7 rem mag ballpark.

My ears were burning... :d Just on a delay.

I've shot more than two dozen elk so far, and the one I shot last fall was the one that surprised me the most with a long follow up after the shot. The shot was the same as many others, a high lung shot just behind the shoulder that usually results in a 20-30 M tracking job or the elk falls in sight. This one ran over 200 M. I was trying to gain experience with a new rifle that I planned to take to Namibia for a Cape Buffalo and Elephant hunt. My Merkel 140AE chambered in .450-400 Nitro Express 3". Firing a 400 grain bullet at 2100 fps. I think it actually was a case of "too much gun" or at least "too much bullet". The Hornady DGX bonded didn't open up much or at all from what I could see. I've seen several elk shot in the same spot with 7mm08 and .270 and .308 that died much, much quicker. So there you go. Over powered rifle = under killed animal. :)

From my experiences outfitting what you saw was the results of velocity ranges rather than over / under gunned or bullet choices in particular. The mass of the Cape Buffalo also factors but I’ll get to that last.

Guiding I noticed what I used to say was a drastic shift in performance around 2400fps impacts, I worked back from the ranges shot on my phone’s ballistic calculator and there was an inexplicable phase shift in performance where even small rounds outperformed large ones, when they were fast or used at close range. At 250 yards a .270 could made a .338 look pretty ineffective in comparison, but the .300 Ultras didn’t show the same drop off in effect. I’ve seen the drop off first hand with 200gr .300 Win in ranges from 200-300 yards where they drop below the cutoff on grizzlies, and then saw grizzlies that were absolutely flattened by .300 RUM, 7mm Rem Mag, and .300 Win with lighter bullets and slightly closer. The .45-70 / .450 Marlin range were the least dramatic on game, also explained by velocity in my mind. For awhile I thought what I was seeing was a distinct change in bullet performance / opening at 2400ish, but since have learned more.

Recently I came across a video here from Federal and the FBI’s ballistics lab and autopsy findings. At 2200fps impacts and above, radiating tissue damage (tearing and cellular wall destruction, damage to blood vessels and nerves for instance far from the impact site) occurs from shock waves traveling through tissue that is permanent. Below that velocity the primary wounding mechanism is bleeding out, introducing atmospheric pressure above the diaphragm negating aspiration, and physically destroying organs and the central nervous system. That’s what the .45-70, your .450-400, and arrows use to kill. A .270 or .25-06 will often be far more dramatic as they carry the velocity for radiating tissue damage, and do so for a good deal of range.

Turns out I probably estimated a couple hundred FPS high, but a buffer doesn’t hurt in that estimation. On Cape Buff, we’re just dealing with an animal so massive and sturdily built that the letting light in way of killing of the heavier, slower rounds starts to catch up to the faster ones. Physically breaking bones starts to become really important, and lower velocity, and heavier rounds generally track straighter doing this. Even if it’s only breaking that bone to actually get to the organs. With bears, even the biggest ones this falls second fiddle to the effects of velocity and a bullet that can deliver that energy yet penetrate enough to still do the deed without leaning solely on the speed crutch. A good bullet out of a .270, .30-06, or .300 is prime big bear medicine. Better than the .458 Win Mag, frankly. I carry a .375 as it’s fast enough to stay above the cutoff, and penetrates pretty true from bad angles on bone.

This is my buff, he actually dropped on the spot like he was pole axed, to my .375 H&H well inside 20 yards, impact about 2450fps. I also used another .375 H&H to drop a Wood Bison bull a good deal larger than the Cape Buff with one 20 yard shot. Jon (the PH) said he sees the quickest kills from .375 H&H and .458 Lott, both coincidentally arrive over 2200fps at buffalo ranges, though I put this realisation together nearly a decade later. He himself carried a .375 H&H when it rained (SS) and a .458 Lott otherwise, the one real charge he had to stop was with the H&H. Taylor also noted that the .375 H&H and 7x57 has outsized effect his theory struggled to accommodate, the crux of it is they’re the fast ones in his test / experience group. I do believe the effect of velocity is muted a bit in animals of this mass and construction, and not nearly as important a consideration as on North American game. The rules as I’ve begrudgingly learned them outfitting are speed kills, not absurd speed, most standard rounds make it at most ranges. Your average .30-06 does perfectly, and for a good ways.

From now on, any wildcat I make or rifle I build has to get the bullets to the target above the cutoff at the ranges I plan on using it at. Anyhow, my thoughts from a lot of well dead game.

O8f8izb.jpg
 
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My ears were burning... :d Just on a delay.



From my experiences outfitting what you saw was the results of velocity ranges rather than over / under gunned or bullet choices in particular. The mass of the Cape Buffalo also factors but I’ll get to that last.

Guiding I noticed what I used to say was a drastic shift in performance around 2400fps impacts, I worked back from the ranges shot on my phone’s ballistic calculator and there was an inexplicable phase shift in performance where even small rounds outperformed large ones, when they were fast or used at close range. At 250 yards a .270 could made a .338 look pretty ineffective in comparison, but the .300 Ultras didn’t show the same drop off in effect. I’ve seen the drop off first hand with 200gr .300 Win in ranges from 200-300 yards where they drop below the cutoff on grizzlies, and then saw grizzlies that were absolutely flattened by .300 RUM, 7mm Rem Mag, and .300 Win with lighter bullets and slightly closer. The .45-70 / .450 Marlin range were the least dramatic on game, also explained by velocity in my mind. For awhile I thought what I was seeing was a distinct change in bullet performance / opening at 2400ish, but since have learned more.

Recently I came across a video here from Federal and the FBI’s ballistics lab and autopsy findings. At 2200fps impacts and above, radiating tissue damage (tearing and cellular wall destruction, damage to blood vessels and nerves for instance far from the impact site) occurs from shock waves traveling through tissue that is permanent. Below that velocity the primary wounding mechanism is bleeding out, introducing atmospheric pressure above the diaphragm negating aspiration, and physically destroying organs and the central nervous system. That’s what the .45-70, your .450-400, and arrows use to kill. A .270 or .25-06 will often be far more dramatic as they carry the velocity for radiating tissue damage, and do so for a good deal of range.

Turns out I probably estimated a couple hundred FPS high, but a buffer doesn’t hurt in that estimation. On Cape Buff, we’re just dealing with an animal so massive and sturdily built that the letting light in way of killing of the heavier, slower rounds starts to catch up to the faster ones. Physically breaking bones starts to become really important, and lower velocity, and heavier rounds generally track straighter doing this. Even if it’s only breaking that bone to actually get to the organs. With bears, even the biggest ones this falls second fiddle to the effects of velocity and a bullet that can deliver that energy yet penetrate enough to still do the deed without leaning solely on the speed crutch. A good bullet out of a .270, .30-06, or .300 is prime big bear medicine. Better than the .458 Win Mag, frankly. I carry a .375 as it’s fast enough to stay above the cutoff, and penetrates pretty true from bad angles on bone.

This is my buff, he actually dropped on the spot like he was pole axed, to my .375 H&H well inside 20 yards, impact about 2450fps. I also used another .375 H&H to drop a Wood Bison bull a good deal larger than the Cape Buff with one 20 yard shot. Jon (the PH) said he sees the quickest kills from .375 H&H and .458 Lott, both coincidentally arrive over 2200fps at buffalo ranges, though I put this realisation together nearly a decade later. He himself carried a .375 H&H when it rained (SS) and a .458 Lott otherwise, the one real charge he had to stop was with the H&H. Taylor also noted that the .375 H&H and 7x57 has outsized effect his theory struggled to accommodate, the crux of it is they’re the fast ones in his test / experience group. I do believe the effect of velocity is muted a bit in animals of this mass and construction, and not nearly as important a consideration as on North American game. The rules as I’ve begrudgingly learned them outfitting are speed kills, not absurd speed, most standard rounds make it at most ranges. Your average .30-06 does perfectly, and for a good ways.

From now on, any wildcat I make or rifle I build has to get the bullets to the target above the cutoff at the ranges I plan on using it at. Anyhow, my thoughts from a lot of well dead game.

O8f8izb.jpg

Nathan Foster, of terminal ballistic studies, puts the cut off at 2650ft/sec. He calls the concept hydrostatic shock. Notice that is a typical muzzle velocity for 308 win. Basically the hydrostatic shock wave hits so many nerves, it overwhelms the pain receptors and causes a coma. Meanwhile the mechanical wounding causes such trauma the animal never wakes up. Bang...flop........dead right there.
 
That’s a different and murkier theory, it does occur but isn’t reliable, and the larger the critter and stiffer the bullet the less likely you’ll see it. What the FBI describes and I tried to relate is there’s tissue damage and tearing from the velocity of shock waves travelling through tissue. When those waves originate from an impact greater than 2200fps, they cause permanent damage and additional wounding. When the impact is below the 2200 cutoff, the tissue distortion doesn’t result in damage beyond the immediate bullet wound site. This is witnessed in the frequently mentioned “eat right up to the whole” aspect of slower rounds, vs the jello of a close range .270 impact. That jello effect is ruptured cells and tissue from the radiating high velocity waves through tissue, and it’s produced reliably at 2200fps and above impacts. Importantly this tissue damage doesn’t necessarily mean bang flops, just more damage, but that of course correlated to more bang flops. Overall, the animal may still run and often does, but has taken a heavier hit from the 300 yard .270 or 75 yard 7x57, than the .45-70 at either of those ranges.
 
So here is a flip side thread to the usual CGN theme. You know the 7.62x39 for Moose, or 223 Remington on Elk.

I had a Grizzly take a Moose. Bought a 375 rum, perhaps a year after their introduction. Took more Deer than Moose with it. Too steal a phrase from under bore proponents, its all about shot placement. I can't say any needed a second shot, or i ruined any more(or less) meat than a more standard caliber. It was my main rifle for about 12 years. Now i use my late fathers last rifle, a 3006.

Second rifle is a M1917 in 416 Rigby. Originally built by a famous Smith as his personal Bison rifle. When going on a Sheep hunt, he found himself with a great number of project rifles, and only one he considered accurate. So the Buffalo rifle with the Bevan King stovepipe contour barrel took the Dall ram.

Most of the truly over kill situations i can personally think of are using my hunting rifles for target of opportunity coyotes. A 338wm or 300wm are not ideal for predators, but the results were what i had in mind.

How about everyone's large firearm over bore stories?

I regularly take black tails with a 7mm rem mag.
you learn to pick your shots that's for sure.
 
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