Cleaning During Ammo Testing

Slug870

Slug870

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So in a previous post I was talking about locating ammo sample packs to see what my T1x likes best. I have rounded up a few different ammo choices and have more on order, so that is set. And yes, I acknowledge the fact that lot numbers play a big part in the process, however some basic testing will let me know what ammo my rifle likes, and from there I can delve deeper.

So now a new question comes to mind and that is pertaining to cleaning the barrel during testing, specifically in between groups/ammo types etc. My intent is to thoroughly clean the barrel prior to taking the rifle out, fire a couple of groups to foul the barrel, and then commence my testing which will consist of multiple five round groups (of each ammo type) at 50m and at 100m.

What I am wondering is if I should clean the barrel prior to firing the next ammo to be shot (ie shoot Eley Match, clean barrel, shoot SK Standard) as well as if I should fire fouling rounds between ammo types or if I am altogether overthinking this.

Thoughts?

EDIT: Feel free to discuss barrel cooling between groups as well as I know it will come up...
 
I would say leave it, all 22 LR ammo has lubrication of some kind on the bullet, usually a wax base lube but I believe SK uses a more liquid based lube. Anytime you clean the barrel you are going to remove anything that gets built up which would likely skew your results. Do your initial clean and then send it from there.
 
lubes don't mix well, clean between brands and shoot 5 foulers into the dirt then go back onto paper, the first shot from a clean bore is usually way way off anyways. you will know withing five 5 shot groups if the ammo is going to like your barrel, from there it will either stay the same or get better.

I've shot what my rifle likes, then 15 or so groups of other ammo without cleaning, then gone back to my good ammo and couldn't get it to shoot, cleaned the barrel and everything was as good as it was, mixing ammo is usually the greatest cause of a rimfire rifle that won't shoot anything good
 
yodave said:
lubes don't mix well, clean between brands and shoot 5 foulers into the dirt then go back onto paper, the first shot from a clean bore is usually way way off anyways. you will know withing five 5 shot groups if the ammo is going to like your barrel, from there it will either stay the same or get better.

I've shot what my rifle likes, then 15 or so groups of other ammo without cleaning, then gone back to my good ammo and couldn't get it to shoot, cleaned the barrel and everything was as good as it was, mixing ammo is usually the greatest cause of a rimfire rifle that won't shoot anything good
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Seriously asking here, not trying to be a ###### I'm curious to hear your thoughts on why the lube would affect accuracy?
 
buji88 said:
Seriously asking here, not trying to be a ###### I'm curious to hear your thoughts on why the lube would affect accuracy?
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My guess (which is purely speculative) is when shooting one type the lube coats the bore evenly, then when you switch types lube B starts mixing and then replacing the first lube and each shot ends up with a different mix/distribution of lube which leads to inconsistencies. Eventually lube B would completely replace lube A and consistency would return but that would take a lot more time/ammo then just cleaning and shooting a few foulers.

Again, this is purely a guess, but it seems logical to me.
 
Slug870 said:
So in a previous post I was talking about locating ammo sample packs to see what my T1x likes best. I have rounded up a few different ammo choices and have more on order, so that is set. And yes, I acknowledge the fact that lot numbers play a big part in the process, however some basic testing will let me know what ammo my rifle likes, and from there I can delve deeper.

So now a new question comes to mind and that is pertaining to cleaning the barrel during testing, specifically in between groups/ammo types etc. My intent is to thoroughly clean the barrel prior to taking the rifle out, fire a couple of groups to foul the barrel, and then commence my testing which will consist of multiple five round groups (of each ammo type) at 50m and at 100m.

What I am wondering is if I should clean the barrel prior to firing the next ammo to be shot (ie shoot Eley Match, clean barrel, shoot SK Standard) as well as if I should fire fouling rounds between ammo types or if I am altogether overthinking this.

Thoughts?

EDIT: Feel free to discuss barrel cooling between groups as well as I know it will come up...
Click to expand...

Clean barrel before testing a different brand of ammo.

This is a good reading material and even Vudoo Gun Works takes this into consideration.

Carbon ring-cause and effect https://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1184335
 
I run a couple dry patches through the barrel between ammo brands. I use a weed whacker pull through for that, takes about 30 seconds for two patches.

Then I fire 5-10 fouling shots and carry on.

A complete cleaning may require 20-30 shots to get back to "normal", since you're starting with what is supposedly a squeaky clean bare steel bore.

This has worked well for me, although both .22 rifle's that I test with seem to require very little in the way of fouling shots after a complete cleaning. CZ 452 Varmint and a Tikka T1x.

If I'm testing ammo with similar lubes, e.g. two or more SK products, I skip the dry patches between types and go straight to fouling shots. These may not be needed, IMO, but there's no harm in it either.

RWS seems to be particularly filthy.. black deposits on the patches as bad as Remington.
 
yodave said:
lubes don't mix well, clean between brands and shoot 5 foulers into the dirt then go back onto paper, the first shot from a clean bore is usually way way off anyways. you will know withing five 5 shot groups if the ammo is going to like your barrel, from there it will either stay the same or get better.

I've shot what my rifle likes, then 15 or so groups of other ammo without cleaning, then gone back to my good ammo and couldn't get it to shoot, cleaned the barrel and everything was as good as it was, mixing ammo is usually the greatest cause of a rimfire rifle that won't shoot anything good
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Agree completely and have had the same results. Only exception for me was trying different SK ammo didn't seem to have the same effect. Maybe because the lube is the same from one flavour to the other. A clean gun between also gives a good baseline for your comparisons.
 
Slug870 said:
So in a previous post I was talking about locating ammo sample packs to see what my T1x likes best. I have rounded up a few different ammo choices and have more on order, so that is set. And yes, I acknowledge the fact that lot numbers play a big part in the process, however some basic testing will let me know what ammo my rifle likes, and from there I can delve deeper.

So now a new question comes to mind and that is pertaining to cleaning the barrel during testing, specifically in between groups/ammo types etc. My intent is to thoroughly clean the barrel prior to taking the rifle out, fire a couple of groups to foul the barrel, and then commence my testing which will consist of multiple five round groups (of each ammo type) at 50m and at 100m.

What I am wondering is if I should clean the barrel prior to firing the next ammo to be shot (ie shoot Eley Match, clean barrel, shoot SK Standard) as well as if I should fire fouling rounds between ammo types or if I am altogether overthinking this.

Thoughts?

EDIT: Feel free to discuss barrel cooling between groups as well as I know it will come up...
Click to expand...

Barrel heating not an issue because .22LR ammo simply doesn't heat up a barrel like magnum rimfire or, even more, centerfire. Shooting in colder temperatures along with cartridge temperature variations can contribute to accuracy issues, but barrel warming because of shooting will not. According to a detailed study of barrel temperature, "the total temperature increase does not exceed 5°C after taking 40 shots and does not affect the position of the hitting point on a target". Shooting in colder temperatures will likely result in a smaller temperature increase. See h t t p s://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3944560/

A good maxim to remember is a clean bore shoots better than a dirty bore.

As suggested by other posters, it's a good idea to clean the bore between different ammos. This is especially important when changing between ammos made by different manufacturers. The bullet lubrication can be very different, and results can be affected particularly for the first couple of groups if no cleaning occurs between makes of ammo. For example if switching between Eley and Lapua/SK ammos, clean the bore.

When shooting different varieties of ammo by the same maker -- SK ammos, for example -- it is less important to clean than when switching between ammos from different manufacturers. Of course if a lot of rounds are shot, it's a good idea to clean to keep everything on a level playing field.

Cleaning doesn't have to be complicated. Use a cleaning rod and a jag with a patch and a bore guide. Put some solvent on a patch and run it through the bore, followed by a couple of dry patches. That will clean the bore adequately for testing with ammos by different manufacturers. If you don't have a cleaning rod, and are using a bore snake, order a one piece cleaning rod and use the bore snake until you get the rod. The bore snake will be better than nothing. When testing for the best accuracy with different ammo varieties or lots of ammo, having a cleaning rod and bore guide should not be avoided because they may be considered too expensive.

Shoot a few foulers after cleaning. A clean bore often does not put the first bullets where a fouled bore will. Above all, make sure to shoot enough groups to get enough information. Sometimes one really nice group suggests a good ammo has been identified, but it's important not to confuse a random act of act of accuracy with repeatable consistency. Shoot at least five 5-shot groups before concluding an ammo is good. Lousy ammo can often be identified with fewer than five groups.

Finally, unless a shooter is experienced enough to consistently shoot well at 100 yards, it's a better idea to test ammos at 50 yards. Why? At 100 yards there is much more room for shooter inconsistency to influence results as much as or more than ammo inconsistency. Find the ammos that produce the best results at 50 yards and then try them at 100 yards. No ammo will improve in accuracy MOA-wise as distance increases. In other words, if an ammo can't shoot well at 50 it won't self-correct and do better (MOA-wise) at 100.
 
grauhanen said:
Barrel heating not an issue because .22LR ammo simply doesn't heat up a barrel like magnum rimfire or, even more, centerfire. Shooting in colder temperatures along with cartridge temperature variations can contribute to accuracy issues, but barrel warming because of shooting will not. According to a detailed study of barrel temperature, "the total temperature increase does not exceed 5°C after taking 40 shots and does not affect the position of the hitting point on a target". Shooting in colder temperatures will likely result in a smaller temperature increase. See h t t p s://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3944560/

A good maxim to remember is a clean bore shoots better than a dirty bore.

As suggested by other posters, it's a good idea to clean the bore between different ammos. This is especially important when changing between ammos made by different manufacturers. The bullet lubrication can be very different, and results can be affected particularly for the first couple of groups if no cleaning occurs between makes of ammo. For example if switching between Eley and Lapua/SK ammos, clean the bore.

When shooting different varieties of ammo by the same maker -- SK ammos, for example -- it is less important to clean than when switching between ammos from different manufacturers. Of course if a lot of rounds are shot, it's a good idea to clean to keep everything on a level playing field.

Cleaning doesn't have to be complicated. Use a cleaning rod and a jag with a patch and a bore guide. Put some solvent on a patch and run it through the bore, followed by a couple of dry patches. That will clean the bore adequately for testing with ammos by different manufacturers. If you don't have a cleaning rod, and are using a bore snake, order a one piece cleaning rod and use the bore snake until you get the rod. The bore snake will be better than nothing. When testing for the best accuracy with different ammo varieties or lots of ammo, having a cleaning rod and bore guide should not be avoided because they may be considered too expensive.

Shoot a few foulers after cleaning. A clean bore often does not put the first bullets where a fouled bore will. Above all, make sure to shoot enough groups to get enough information. Sometimes one really nice group suggests a good ammo has been identified, but it's important not to confuse a random act of act of accuracy with repeatable consistency. Shoot at least five 5-shot groups before concluding an ammo is good. Lousy ammo can often be identified with fewer than five groups.

Finally, unless a shooter is experienced enough to consistently shoot well at 100 yards, it's a better idea to test ammos at 50 yards. Why? At 100 yards there is much more room for shooter inconsistency to influence results as much as or more than ammo inconsistency. Find the ammos that produce the best results at 50 yards and then try them at 100 yards. No ammo will improve in accuracy MOA-wise as distance increases. In other words, if an ammo can't shoot well at 50 it won't self-correct and do better (MOA-wise) at 100.
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Thank you for this post. To be honest, my OP was at first intended to be a pm to you, however I figured it would be beneficial for other members to view your advice too, as well as the input from others members.

Very interesting information on the .22lr barrel heating, I can honestly say I was not aware of that.

I am also a little surprised with your advice on shooting only at 50m, and I say that with all due respect. However, i would think that any shooter related inconsistencies would exist both at 50m and at 100m, with the 100m results better illustrating not only those shooter related inconsistencies; but those of the ammo as well. I guess what I am trying to say is that the inconsistencies of the shooter would exist at both distances, in effect "cancelling out" that variable in the results. Hopefully I expressed that thought correctly.
 
I've tested ammo at both 50 yards and 100 yards, all lot numbers shot under a 3/8 average consistently at 50, however at 100 yards my lot numbers went from just over 2 inches to under 3/4.......I settled on the under 3/4 obviously and put that rifle in the 4 or 5 group under 1 inch at 100 yards, a thread that was rather quiet after people were shown it could be done.......

bottom line.......test at both on a calm day, if all your shots feel good then take your results as they hit the paper.......if you have weird explainable fliers, or dropped shots, toss that box and move on
 
buji88 said:
Seriously asking here, not trying to be a ###### I'm curious to hear your thoughts on why the lube would affect accuracy?
Click to expand...

it's been experienced many times that some lubes don't mix well, an oily lube mixed with a waxy lube can become so sticky and far from uniform that every shot out the barrel has a mind of it's own, run some tests sometime, rimfire ammo is cheap, and the more you experience first hand the smarter you'll be, or you can save money and take what me and a few others will tell you, the more you shoot, the worse it gets until you are forced to clean..........
 
when i test i test all my sk types then patch the bore and switch to eley. all brands have different lubes and if not cleaning it might take 25 to 50 rounds before the barrel settles down. i just use eds red on a patch and then dry the bore. find too good of cleaning takes too many rounds to season the bore before it shoots good again.
 
Slug870 said:
I am a little surprised with your advice on shooting only at 50m, and I say that with all due respect. However, i would think that any shooter related inconsistencies would exist both at 50m and at 100m, with the 100m results better illustrating not only those shooter related inconsistencies; but those of the ammo as well. I guess what I am trying to say is that the inconsistencies of the shooter would exist at both distances, in effect "cancelling out" that variable in the results. Hopefully I expressed that thought correctly.
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I didn't say to shoot only at 50 yards.

My point is that unless a shooter is experienced, results at 50 yards are more reliable than those at 100. There's more to go wrong with shooting at 100 yards than at 50. Every aspect of inconsistency that may originate with the shooter is magnified with distance. Every effect of wind or air movement is magnified with distance. Every effect of ammo MV inconsistency is magnified with distance.

The effect of conditions are more strongly felt at 100 yards too. Any wind, even air movement that is so slight as to be difficult to notice, makes itself felt on the target more at 100 yards. Movement of air between the shooter and the target may be relatively slow, from 1 - 3mph, are light enough that they can escape notice on the range because they may not even be felt on the face. In addition, air may move differently at different points between the shooter and his 100 yard target.

Unless the air is absolutely calm or wind flags are present and can be very skilfully read, something which requires considerable experience, it may be very difficult to account for the impact of wind, especially at longer distances. A 2 mph movement of air between the shooter and the target, hardly perceptible on the face, can move a bullet as much as about .75" at 100 yards. At 50 yards that same air movement can move a bullet .2".

Furthermore, MV inconsistency of the ammo itself is more apparent at 100 yards than at 50. A 20 fps difference in MV between rounds results in just over .5" of vertical at 100 yards. At 50 the same rounds would have .13" of vertical. What's important to keep in mind here is that a 20 fps difference between rounds is with very good ammo. Many ammos can't be relied on to have better MV consistency.

Even if a shooter executes his shots unerringly, whoever tests at 100 yards (or further) must be able to take his results and account for any error caused by near-imperceptible air movements as well as ammo inconsistency. He has to be sure how either one or both of those impacted his results. How much of the results can be attributed to air movement? How much can be attributed to ammo inconsistency? Is the pattern of the group a product of one or the other or of both? Even for shooters who can execute shots consistently this can be a challenge.

That's why I suggest testing at 50 yards first, before testing at 100. Any ammos that produce good results at 50 yards are worth testing at 100. Once those ammos are identified, shoot at 100 'til you run out of ammo. No ammo that fails at 50 is going to do better at 100. Start at 50 and ammo that's not worth testing at greater distances can be ruled out.
 
I think it's important to present a test environment (barrel state) and distance that matches the purpose you will be using it in. I keep my gun clean. It's clean before I go to a match and if possible I shoot a mag or two to confirm zero and drop at distance before the actual shoot. So when I did ammo testing yesterday I pushed through two wet patches and two dry patches and gave the bolt face a quick brush in-between each box regardless of manufacturer.

Because of the problems with 22lr ammo being so ethereal it's hard to isolate variables. What shoot good in one weather condition may not shoot well in another. In order to compare two different ammos you need to shoot them in similar conditions. Yesterday the temps for the ammo tested in the morning were about 4-5 degrees colder than the last batch. Also I have no doubt I was not breaking the shots with the same diligence for the 6th box of ammo as I was for the first box of ammo. It's mind boggling to me and honestly when you consider differences in one lot vs another lot you start to get dizzy.

I just looked for "big easily visible differences". SK ammo was not good. Lapua Center-X also did not so good either in my rifle. CCI SV and Eley Force did drastically better with Eley being slightly better. Having said that I have 5000 rounds of CCI SV in my basement. So for ORPS I'll just stick with CCI SV and be happy knowing it's good enough. When it comes to testing for CRPS I'll possibily repeat the process again but honestly the DOPE for Eley Force is quite appealing particularly at longer range. Quite likely I'll just save myself the time and money and instead spend that time and money locking in solid numbers at various distances for CRPS
 
Dahsira said:
CCI SV and Eley Force did drastically better with Eley being slightly better.
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I'll wander out on a limb and guess that you're using a Tikka.. if that's the case, your experiences mirror mine.
The CCI SV has been a great performer in my Tikka, slightly less so in cold weather.
I have noticed it's not as good past 50 yds, more vertical than I like at 100 yds.
You mentioned Eley Force, mine likes it as well. What it likes even more is Eley Contact, the standard velocity version of Force without the jazzy black casing. Same bullet, lower velocity.
 
Testing ammo has a number of theories and if you are shooting where ten shots per target is the competition then ten shot groups suggests that 10 shot testing has a purpose. If you are not shooting over flags it may be pointless.

A target with 5 targets will allow keeping of records when every group is shot in a sequence and is the same throughout the test. Always start with a clean barrel and the first target is always #1. Keep track of the first shot . . . is it always a flyer and does it always go to the same location? Discounting the a first shot flyer is acceptable but the entire 10 shots should be studied to reveal differences when re-coating the barrel after cleaning.

Now on to target 2 and through #5. When ammo fails to deliver acceptable groups the test may conclude at anytime. This now becomes practice or fouling ammo. Clean and start overweigh a different lot number. A quick and simple clean with one dry patch maintains consistency and works satisfactorily if staying with the same brand . . . Eley, RWS or Lapua use the same lube with their match lines which is what I am comparing. If changing brands use a similar or consistent clean when starting with a new brand. When doing a complete clean with solvents etc. some rifles require a number of rounds to re-coat with the new lube stabilize results.

When establishing the best accuracy all five targets need to be factored in. The exception may be with flyers in the first group so learn what you can from #1. It may require a closer look at carbon build up which is covered previously.

Shooting competitions at 100 will warrant testing at 100 but when shooting at both 100/50 then testing the same ammo at the different distances may expose a preference.

For those with a tuner, testing without the tuner is recommended. Once the best ammo is established then further testing with the tuner is in order. A tuner should not be used anticipating it will make bad ammo better.

Testing ammo is done to establish a larger purchase like a case. A test where your supplier cannot supply a case of the same lot is a waste of time and ammo. A test done with the intention of buying a case should be discussed with your supplier beforehand. Don't expect that case to be available if you take more than a month to complete your tests.
 
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To the ops question, you might want to consider how well you should clean.

There's "kind of clean" and then there's "squeaky clean".

A quick patch out with Hoppes is one thing, but a full bronze brush scrub is another.

If you clean thoroughly, it will take more shots to season up the metal surfaces again than it would if you just patch it out.

Consider the coefficient of friction between a lead rubbed steel barrel vs a clean steel barrel... Then consider the same lead rubbed barrel mixed with the lubricant.
 
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