209 shotgun primer substituion

warzaw

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I want to use some old shot shell data heavy lead 1 7/8 and 2 ounce Active 3" with Blue Dot and Fiocchi 215 and 216 primer data . I have everything else on hand Fed 209 and 209A Win 209 ,CCI 209 and 209M Rem 209, Cheddite both types even have some CIL 4PB and Alcan220 Max-Fires (don't laugh) I some times substitute primers in low pressure loads but these field loads are in the 11000 psi range any thoughts or suggestions ?
 
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no. primer change effects pressure way to much in shot shell loads.

I have data I would love to use for some old hulls but federal 209's and alcan220's are no longer made so I'm SOL and then there's the loads that use powder no longer made. I have recently tried to get down range engineering to make the Lage uniwad again but they need to find the molds. gun shows are my only hope for finding old components.

only substitution I will ever make is card wads in straight wall hulls
 
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no primer change effects pressure way to much in shot shell loads.

I have data I would love to use for some old hulls but federal 209's and alcan220's are no longer made so I'm SOL and then there's the loads that use powder no longer made. I have recently tried to get down range engineering to make the Lage uniwad again but they need to find the molds. gun shows are my only hope for finding old components.

only substitution I will ever make is card wads in straight wall hulls

Do you mean, "No. Primer change affects pressure way too much in shot shells," ?? :confused:
 
no primer change effects pressure way to much in shot shell loads.

I have data I would love to use for some old hulls but federal 209's and alcan220's are no longer made so I'm SOL and then there's the loads that use powder no longer made. I have recently tried to get down range engineering to make the Lage uniwad again but they need to find the molds. gun shows are my only hope for finding old components.

only substitution I will ever make is card wads in straight wall hulls

You are right and I know better trying to convince myself . These loads are on the 11000 psi range I have subbed primers on low psi target loads with similar primer characteristics and gotten away with it still not a good thing to do.
 
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Do you mean, "No. Primer change affects pressure way too much in shot shells," ?? :confused:

yes plain and simple its not a good idea to sub anything from a shot shell recipe unless you find something similar in a different recipe.

what scares the c*** out of me is the old lee loader data doesn't list hull/primer or wad. I don't know how it was safe I guess most paper hulls were near enough that it didn't matter much.

substituting card wads in straight walled hulls will lower the pressure(mainly due to gas leaking) but id still use published data for everything else
 
Some comparisons

Shotshell Primer Comparison

Winchester 12-Ga. 2-3/4" AA Hull
17.0 Grains IMR 700-X Powder
Greenduster GT 9210-12 Wad
One Ounce No. 8 Lead Shot

Primer and Lot Chamber Pressure p.s.i.
Fed. 209A 10,860 (EV 600)
CCI-209M 10,460 (EV 1300)
Win. 209 10,140 (EV 400)
Rem. 209STS 9,740 (EV 2200)
FIO-616 9,690 (EV 1600)
CCI-209 9,650 (EV 2300)
Rem. 209P 8,810 (EV 2200)
Fed. 209 9,070 (EV 900)
Cheddite 209 9,270 (EV 2000
 
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Mac that 700 load is relatively mild even in the AA hull . I am looking at 37 gr Blue Dot ,1 7/8 nickel in a 3" Active hull ,Ranger wad with chamber pressure over 11000 psi its a little iffy whats your take . I am looking around for the Fio-615 it seems I am not happy without some aggravation .
 
What 3macs1 list shows is the changes in pressure as a result of a primer change.
You cannot assume that the relative "hottest" or "coolest" primer in these loads of 700x will give the same response with other powders.
 
What 3macs1 list shows is the changes in pressure as a result of a primer change.
You cannot assume that the relative "hottest" or "coolest" primer in these loads of 700x will give the same response with other powders.

True but I would bet it would be a similar pattern but would I risk it ???. You can see what is the hottest and coolest primer however and it is known winchester has always been the weaker
Almost impossible to find any exact tests done with blue dot today
Cheers
What we know so far

The Fiocchi 615 primer is a milder primer than the 616.

Not my words

Much has been said/discussed/debated on this subject.

The old rule about primer swapping is still as relevent as ever, however there are instances where some latitude is acceptable.

Whereas most all target ammo is developed on fairly low pressure load data, the substitution of some of the primers is considered as completely safe as there is much room above the listed load pressures and the max allowable pressures set down by SAAMI. A pressure rise may occur, but still will be within the max allowable pressures.

With this in mind, it is then considered safe to sub certain primers in 12 ga., so long as the Book listed pressures are 10,000 PSI or less. The SAAMI maximun for the 12 ga. is 11,500 PSI.

Any load showing pressures of above 10,000 PSI, should be loaded strictly by the book with NO substitution of the listed primer.

It is pretty much an accepted practice on the lower pressure target loads to base your loads on those using, or calling for the W/W W-209 primer. These loads are normally safe to use the W-209, the STS 209P, the CCI-209, or the Fiocchi 616 (209), or the Nobel Sport 209. Also by reducing the powder charge by 1/2 grain, you can use the Cheddite 209 or the REO 209.

It is never permissable to use the CCI 209M or the Federal 209A in any load not specifically calling for that primer. These primers are very hot and can cause excessive chamber pressures if not used as specified.

To directly answer your question as to substituting the Fiocchi primer for the Winchester, yes it is perfectly safe.

My personal testing has revealed the Fiocchi 616 (209) primer most nearly mirrors the STS 209P Remington primer, which is slightly milder than the Winchester 209. No increase in chamber pressures will be incurred by this substitution, in the lower pressure target loads.

The important thing to remember is, that you DO NOT substitute primers in loads that are listed with near max pressures. In these loads follow the Book data to the letter.
 
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Thanks Mac my thoughts are the same I have the Rem 209 but this load I am looking at is over 11000 psi . I was looking for a second opinion . I think I have found some Fiocchi waiting for a reply. Time to baste some Turkeys . Regards Warzaw
 
Thanks Mac my thoughts are the same I have the Rem 209 but this load I am looking at is over 11000 psi . I was looking for a second opinion . I think I have found some Fiocchi waiting for a reply. Time to baste some Turkeys . Regards Warzaw

Cool. I am going to make some pickled eggs which I have not had since my 99 year old Grandmother passed some years ago. A good newfoundland formulation :)
Bored here with all the snow and the mrs home from work for 3 weeks now min due to the virus
LOL trying to keep out of her way before she hurts me
Cheers
 
Cool. I am going to make some pickled eggs which I have not had since my 99 year old Grandmother passed some years ago. A good newfoundland formulation :)
Bored here with all the snow and the mrs home from work for 3 weeks now min due to the virus
LOL trying to keep out of her way before she hurts me
Cheers

To funny I am pickling 3 dozen as we speak. The Warden is from Sussex NB but she won't eat them so I have them all to myself.
 
It depends on the brine and how hard boiled they are . A week is more than enough I usually sample them after a few days . I also like to add some sweet onions with them.
 
Ya one big FART! You just made my day PC I cant stop laughing.

Around our house back in the day it was a series of several big farts over several hours,kinda liken it to rolling thunder.My Mom's pickled eggs were highly cherished items.There was usually always a dozen or more in the fridge at all times.I know this has sidetracked the thread a bit but sure brings back a lot of nice childhood memories.
 
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