45-70 vs 45-90 in sharps rifle
- Thread starter m1978
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I would say it depends what you are doing with it. If you're shooting BPCR matches out to ~1000 yards, believe it or not the 45-70 is more than enough. The 45-70 is always in the top three at any match. This is because when you're loading black powder and shooting a match, you're probably using paper patch bullets to be most competitive. You can seat those so far out that you can get up to 90 grains of powder in the 45-70 case, essentially making it a 45-90. If you were to do the same to a 45-90, it would bring you to 45-110 levels of powder capacity. The 45-70 is already a lot of thump with those levels of powder, so most people don't care for anything larger since it really becomes a case of diminishing returns in both accuracy and recoil, plus you're just wasting powder eventually with the larger cartridges.
This changes when using exclusively grease groove bullets, since they can't be seated as far out unless you have a reduced diameter first or second band. When I load grease groove, my load is generally 71 grains of powder with enough compression to allow me to seat my bullet. The most I have tried is 75 grains but that is a LOT of compression and it wasn't as accurate. Keep in mind, this load still provides plenty of power to get to 1000 yards with a 545 grain projectile out of my 34" barreled Pedersoli Sharps.
Speaking to specifically smokeless, Pedersoli does not recommend using smokeless in any of their Sharps above 45-70. They explicitly state this in numerous places on the gun and in the manual. It's not to say you can't, but as with any Pedersoli Sharps, they do perform best with black powder. There is a hell of a lot of empty case with smokeless 45-90 loads that I would want to use a filler or something just to get even ignition. 45-70 is easy to find factory loaded, easy to find components for, and is a proven smokeless performer as well.
This changes when using exclusively grease groove bullets, since they can't be seated as far out unless you have a reduced diameter first or second band. When I load grease groove, my load is generally 71 grains of powder with enough compression to allow me to seat my bullet. The most I have tried is 75 grains but that is a LOT of compression and it wasn't as accurate. Keep in mind, this load still provides plenty of power to get to 1000 yards with a 545 grain projectile out of my 34" barreled Pedersoli Sharps.
Speaking to specifically smokeless, Pedersoli does not recommend using smokeless in any of their Sharps above 45-70. They explicitly state this in numerous places on the gun and in the manual. It's not to say you can't, but as with any Pedersoli Sharps, they do perform best with black powder. There is a hell of a lot of empty case with smokeless 45-90 loads that I would want to use a filler or something just to get even ignition. 45-70 is easy to find factory loaded, easy to find components for, and is a proven smokeless performer as well.
Can't speak to the Pedersoli, but I've read back in the day 45-70 would be fired out of a 45-90 if the 90 dried up. These reports I read were based on buffalo hunters of the period. How it effected accuracy is anyone's guess. But I suspect it didn't get better. For simplicity of sourcing ammo or reloading components, I'd suggest like the others, to go with 45-70.
back in the old days when I was shooting a lot of Black powder silhouette .I always felt 45-90 may have had a small edge over 45-70. I think all of the 45-90 rifles were Browning version's of the Hi wall , They seemed to be very good shooting guns 45-70 included. The 40-65 had less recoil but were a bit finicky to get shooting well. We had access to a 980 yd. range where the game we played allowed duplex loading . 45-90 duplex loads would hurt you even with a sissy pad. Remember this was with Black Powder. I think If I were planing to go smokeless 45-70 would be my choice. And much easier to come up with components, although in my experience nether are hard on cases.
tactical lever
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Sounds like you're more concerned with shooting smokeless mainly? With BP there's a case to made for the 45-90 and the increased powder capacity. With smokeless, though, the 45-90 needs more powder just to keep up with the 45-70 due to all the empty room in the case.
Using smokeless loads above the strong lever gun levels will give most people more than they care to handle with a traditional stock and hard butt plate. I have not seen "strong gun" loads for 45-90. The 45-90 has a 2.4" case and the .458 Winchester has a 2.5" case. Probably due to the thick brass around the belted magnum, the case capacity is pretty close. 89.7 gr. versus 93.3 grains for the .458. I can't say for sure but I don't know if the guns are rated for near .458 levels of power.
Using smokeless loads above the strong lever gun levels will give most people more than they care to handle with a traditional stock and hard butt plate. I have not seen "strong gun" loads for 45-90. The 45-90 has a 2.4" case and the .458 Winchester has a 2.5" case. Probably due to the thick brass around the belted magnum, the case capacity is pretty close. 89.7 gr. versus 93.3 grains for the .458. I can't say for sure but I don't know if the guns are rated for near .458 levels of power.
I have read that they also put a cardboard sleeve in to the cases when loading, to reduce the recoil beating that the guys took, when shooting the carbine version of the trapdoors, too.
Which is sort of a segue to saying, if you don't actually have the need for all that horsepower, on black powder, esp. if you want to shoot smokeless, maybe the smaller case is gonna be lots!
thanks for the replies. was going to dabble in a bit of everything, but the 5744 load i've seen duplicates the black powder velocities or close to it which is good enough for me. i also was hoping to try the "gould" bullet of 330 grains with the big hollowpoint. i've heard this is a very excellent bullet for deer. some people have had issues with the 1:18 twist i hear, some have found it ok.
If you want to shoot smokeless go with the .45-70. If you want to shoot silhouette, definitely go with the .45-70.
But, if you want a 1000 yard rifle, pick the .45-90 each and every day
. I have seen a few .45-70's beat larger cartridges at 1000 yards, when used by the very best shooters. I've seen many more cases where the 45-70's get excessive vertical dispersion at 1000 where my .45-90's did not. At 1000 yards bigger is better as long as you can tolerate the recoil. This will matter less in most gong shoots, but it matters a whole lot when trying to keep shots in the 9 & ten rings in a Creedmoor match.
With that said, for anything other than long range, a .45-70 is going to be a very good choice.
Chris.
But, if you want a 1000 yard rifle, pick the .45-90 each and every day
. I have seen a few .45-70's beat larger cartridges at 1000 yards, when used by the very best shooters. I've seen many more cases where the 45-70's get excessive vertical dispersion at 1000 where my .45-90's did not. At 1000 yards bigger is better as long as you can tolerate the recoil. This will matter less in most gong shoots, but it matters a whole lot when trying to keep shots in the 9 & ten rings in a Creedmoor match.With that said, for anything other than long range, a .45-70 is going to be a very good choice.
Chris.
tactical lever
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Fox Creek, Alberta
I believe 1:18-1:22 is standard for the 45-70. Shouldn't have any problems with a 300 gr. bullet, though personally, I feel the 45-70 shines with about a 400 gr.
If you want to shoot smokeless go with the .45-70. If you want to shoot silhouette, definitely go with the .45-70.
But, if you want a 1000 yard rifle, pick the .45-90 each and every day
With that said, for anything other than long range, a .45-70 is going to be a very good choice.
Chris.
I imagine the 44-77 must be a very nice bp cartridge, i would think it would be pretty close to the 45-90 but with a little less recoil. Have you had any experience with that cal?
No, although I think it's a pretty cool cartridge.
Due to brass availability and cost here in Canada, I've stuck with the various .45 cases, although I do use a .40-65 for silhouette and it's a pretty sweet cartridge.
Chris.
I wanted to build a copy of a Peabody Martini "what cheer" rifle in 44-77, but as Chris noted, with compenent abailability I decided on the 40-65. 44-77 is a great cartridge though, lots of folks in the states love them and have won many matches.
If I was going to look at a .44-77 I'd keep an eye on what Jim Kluskens is doing. He's a paper patch shooter from Wisconsin who does quite well. ( He also used to run Distant Thunder BPCR and made great sights and a few other BPCR things ). He is currently having Shiloh build him a .44-77, but he is using a slightly faster twist barrel from what I remember. I'm sure he will get that thing working very well because he pays a lot of attention to detail.
Chris.
Chris.
I have three rifles chambered in the 44-77, two that I've been shooting and one that is getting close to go to the range. The first is a Cody Ballard - it shoots very well, the second is a Roller (performance is so-so) and the third that isn't quite finished is a Hepburn casting that I'm fitting a Ken Bresien barrel to. The 44-77 in my experience works best with black or a duplex loading - I've tried quite a bit of smokeless loads that work well in everything else but I haven't found the right combo for these. I did finally buy a mold from BACO in a 525 Creedmoor design and it's been a game changer in some of the other 44's I shoot. When time permits I'll dabble in more loads for the 44-77.
As far as recoil, comparing this to the 45-90 when shooting black, they're about a horse apiece for what I've noticed. Some days, I seem to tolerate the recoil well, other days the wuss in me comes out and after ten shots I've had enough... says the guy that enjoys the 50-90...
Like Chris mentioned, with Jamison out of the picture, brass is hard to come by. I have a few hundred and I've dabbled in forming the stuff from 50-90 brass and made a few from 384 Win but at best that's a process and a huge struggle.
There's a lot of comments about what's best if you're only going to have one gun, my recommendation is the 45-70. If you are casting, buy a 400g mold. I shoot that very respectable to 300 yards, next get a 500 or 520 grain mold, it hold's it's own comfortably to 800 - 900 yards, and when you decide to shoot 1000 to 1500 yards, look at the 600 grain NASA. If you can tolerate the recoil well from that the results are surprising. I've shot this weight bullet in my 45-110 and found the 70 more manageable and as accurate...
My 2¢
Greg
As far as recoil, comparing this to the 45-90 when shooting black, they're about a horse apiece for what I've noticed. Some days, I seem to tolerate the recoil well, other days the wuss in me comes out and after ten shots I've had enough... says the guy that enjoys the 50-90...
Like Chris mentioned, with Jamison out of the picture, brass is hard to come by. I have a few hundred and I've dabbled in forming the stuff from 50-90 brass and made a few from 384 Win but at best that's a process and a huge struggle.
There's a lot of comments about what's best if you're only going to have one gun, my recommendation is the 45-70. If you are casting, buy a 400g mold. I shoot that very respectable to 300 yards, next get a 500 or 520 grain mold, it hold's it's own comfortably to 800 - 900 yards, and when you decide to shoot 1000 to 1500 yards, look at the 600 grain NASA. If you can tolerate the recoil well from that the results are surprising. I've shot this weight bullet in my 45-110 and found the 70 more manageable and as accurate...
My 2¢
Greg
I think most people use rifles that are a little too light. My .45-90's recoil a fair bit harder than my .45-70's but I only shoot them prone. They are all pretty heavy too, from just under 13lbs to about 15lbs, which helps quite a bit. Rifle weight can make a huge difference, I have a 15lb Shiloh in .45-2-7/8" and it doesn't feel a lot different than my .45-70's. I used to own a 12 lb C. Sharps in that cartridge and it was a really good gun. The only problem was I could only shoot it off-hard or from sitting cross sticks. When shooting prone the sight would always tag my glasses which is a great way to develop a flinch. Some days I'm sorry I sold it as it was the first rifle I got shooting really well with paper patched bullets, but when I got seriously into NRA black powder target rifle matches it just wasn't a useful rifle to me.
Chris.
