The firing pin thinks it’s pounding nails.
It’s actually a poor way to fire form cases for that reason. A false shoulder is where its at..
223 Light Primer Strike Puzzle
- Thread starter mb571
- Start date
The firing pin thinks it’s pounding nails.
It’s actually a poor way to fire form cases for that reason. A false shoulder is where its at..
Below is a "FIRED" case in my Hornady cartridge case headspace gauge. I measure the "FIRED" cases and then set the die up for minimum shoulder bump.
Bolt action shoulder bump .001 to .003 and semi-auto shoulder bump .003 to .006 and these are ballpark figures.
Below a "fired" case from my AR15, I then set the resizing die for .003 shoulder bump.
Below a example of full length resizing and you only need to push the shoulder back .001 to .003 below the red dotted for a bolt action. If you push the shoulder back more than this you will shorten case life and allow the case to stretch and thin. And this can cause a case head separation because you are exceeding the elastic limits of the brass.
The two cases in the center of your photo show the primers protruding excessively. Meaning the case shoulders were pushed back too far during resizing creating too much head clearance. The head clearance is the "air space" between the rear of the case and the bolt face. And your protruding primers show too much head clearance.
Simple cure, buy a Hornady gauge like pictured above and measure your fired cases and set your die up for minimum shoulder bump.
I have seen it a number of times. If the case shoulder is pushed back a bit, it is the bullet in the rifling hold the round in place. When the firing pin hit, the bullet gets pushed more into the rifling, softening the blow, and a misfire.
The other possibility here is that the primers were not properly seated. That can cause a misfire.
Donny Fenn1
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- East Kootenays
not always, even in 223 depending om primer type, neck tension, bullet type etc
ruger-ruger
CGN Regular
All depends on the case and what you are trying to accomplish.The firing pin thinks it’s pounding nails.
I have watched guys form dasher brass by a jam into the rifling and go and shoot a 600 yard match.
When they can shoot 200 17 or 18x. Yah can’t say it doesn’t work
And there isn’t really any difference as long as you have neck tension to hold in place.
Problem is if you have minimal neck tension.
I have formed brass flash shoulder doughnut, pistol powder, jammed into the lands.
ruger-ruger
CGN Regular
In you comment you stated that jamming a bullet in the rifling can cause mis fires.
The OP was not forming brass. He was just having miss fires.
It’s obvious to see why he was having misfires
But you saying that a bullet in the rifling will cause miss fires is not correct.
In my case , I was transitioning from neck sizing only , to neck sizing with a shoulder bump ( Forster bump die ) to full length resizing with a shoulder bump . I had zero issues until I started FL sizing . It was 100% my fault for simply not having the FL die adjusted properly . It was right on the ragged edge and 9 out of 10 would fire perfectly but one would misfire and look like a light primer strike . I blamed the primers right away as that was the easiest thing to do and switched primer brands . Not long after , I had a case head separation in the die and this was an obvious sign of too much head space and over working the brass . I learned a valuable lesson . Now , I still FL resize , but , I am super careful only move the shoulder back .001 . Zero issues .
As per a suggestion on the thread and one from a friend, I did a bit of testing this afternoon.
I started with one of the cases I had trouble firing (took about 3 tries but eventually fired). The primer was protruding 0.018"
-neck sized removing the spent primer
-pushed a used primer in finger tight
-put it in the chamber and closed the bolt seating the primer
-extracted the case and measured how far the primer was pushed in by the bolt face - 0.020"
Next I inserted a new primer with my hand primer. It was flush with the case head.
- fired it and it went off okay
- but it backed out against the bolt face to protruding 0.022"
I tried this a couple more times. The bolt face seats a new primer and it protrudes 0.022"
I can seat it with a hand primer, and then fire it. It again protrudes 0.022"
I then tried a different piece of brass from a different reload day/batch.
I seated a new primer in it and fired it.
The primer backed out to 0.003"
I believe I am learning that I had a headspace problem from a couple dozen pieces of brass that I full length re-sized a year ago, then recently over annealed and neck sized.
I started with one of the cases I had trouble firing (took about 3 tries but eventually fired). The primer was protruding 0.018"
-neck sized removing the spent primer
-pushed a used primer in finger tight
-put it in the chamber and closed the bolt seating the primer
-extracted the case and measured how far the primer was pushed in by the bolt face - 0.020"
Next I inserted a new primer with my hand primer. It was flush with the case head.
- fired it and it went off okay
- but it backed out against the bolt face to protruding 0.022"
I tried this a couple more times. The bolt face seats a new primer and it protrudes 0.022"
I can seat it with a hand primer, and then fire it. It again protrudes 0.022"
I then tried a different piece of brass from a different reload day/batch.
I seated a new primer in it and fired it.
The primer backed out to 0.003"
I believe I am learning that I had a headspace problem from a couple dozen pieces of brass that I full length re-sized a year ago, then recently over annealed and neck sized.
- Location
- Western Manitoba
Yep - what you did was a good way to figure out what is going on. Inserting a fired primer is a great way to verify the "air space" between you casing and the bolt face.
Earlier post might also help you - a normal pressure fired case, from your chamber, as it runs into the FL sizing die that is a full turn or so off the shell holder, will squish down a bit in diameter - that will push the shoulder forward. So, a fired case, from your chamber - partially full length sized, will be very tight if you can even close the bolt. Then, a "bit" - 1/16, 1/32 of a turn at a time on the FL die, you can slowly bump that shoulder back, until your now "re-sized" case is exactly same length at the shoulder, within your chamber. You will not have primers backing out!!
Earlier post might also help you - a normal pressure fired case, from your chamber, as it runs into the FL sizing die that is a full turn or so off the shell holder, will squish down a bit in diameter - that will push the shoulder forward. So, a fired case, from your chamber - partially full length sized, will be very tight if you can even close the bolt. Then, a "bit" - 1/16, 1/32 of a turn at a time on the FL die, you can slowly bump that shoulder back, until your now "re-sized" case is exactly same length at the shoulder, within your chamber. You will not have primers backing out!!
I have seen it before. Brass forming is not the issue. The typical rifle will have 2 to 10 thou of headspace. If the bullet engages the rifling, the case shoulder (or rim) is off the chamber, so the firing pin hit will move the case forward, softening the blow. And a misfire.
The idea of hand seating a dead primer and then closing the bolt to see the primer protrusion is a good way to measure the headspace of that case.
So, do less than an eighth turn. You get the idea, I think. If you want to use a more precise method, you can use a feeler gauge between the shellholder and die. Or, you can buy a bunch of Redding shellholders to accomplish exactly the same thing. The point is, dies are adjustable by virtue of the the fact that they have threads. Too often, people ignore this and set dies up according to instructions with the result shown here.
Oh; I get it, did the same thing for decades until I found a much better way. The trouble is when the shellholder isnt touching the die you are at the mercy of springy presses and brass of differing hardness. Even the amount of lube changes the amount of sizing effort which flexs the press more or less. Screwing a die down hard on the shell holder may size the cases too much, but at least its consistent. The Competition Shellholders combine the best of both worlds.
I load for dozens of rifles and can do the vast majority of those with 3 sets. Most of those with just 2. Another advantage is I can size cases for different rifles with the same dies without even adjusting them. Anything the shellholders cost is made back many times just by that.
The point is, threads equal adjustment; whether one chooses to have the shellholder contact or not is immaterial. The important thing is to produce ammunition which does not have excessive head clearance. This can be accomplished with shellholders of varying thickness, feeler gauges, shims placed between the lock ring and press, or by trial and error.
If one wants to spend the money and wishes to use Redding's shellholders, that is a wonderful, elegant, solution and may even be the best one. For sure, if the shellholder contacts when the case is sized, one variable (flex in the press) is eliminated. If, however, the handloader doesn't want to buy a set of shellholders, it is not necessary. What is necessary is to avoid setting the shoulder back. This is a basic requirement. Once the handloader grasps that concept, he can then explore ways and means. I think we can agree, the solution to the OP's problem is to begin sizing to achieve the correct headspace.
If one wants to spend the money and wishes to use Redding's shellholders, that is a wonderful, elegant, solution and may even be the best one. For sure, if the shellholder contacts when the case is sized, one variable (flex in the press) is eliminated. If, however, the handloader doesn't want to buy a set of shellholders, it is not necessary. What is necessary is to avoid setting the shoulder back. This is a basic requirement. Once the handloader grasps that concept, he can then explore ways and means. I think we can agree, the solution to the OP's problem is to begin sizing to achieve the correct headspace.
Chambers and dies vary in size, "BUT" in over 47 years of reloading and using case gauges I have never seen a case shoulder pushed back .022 when resizing. And if you have a die that pushes the shoulder back that far I would say you have a defective resizing die. Either someone ground down the bottom of the die or ground down the shell holder.
The reloading manuals tell you to "NOT" use cases that were used with reduced loads again with full power loads. This is because every time a reduced load is fired the case gets shorter from the force of the firing pin hitting the primer. I'm saying this because I'm wondering how your cases became so short and if your shoulder bump die was causing the problem. I have Forster neck sizing bump dies and used my Hornady cartridge case headspace gauge to adjust the die for .001 shoulder bump.
Bottom line, you need a gauge to measure your "FIRED" case length and then set the die for minimum shoulder bump. And with the majority of drop in case gauges a fired case will not drop all the way into the gauge.
Hornady Lock-N-Load® Headspace Comparator
https://www.hornady.com/headspace-bushings#!/
The Lock-N-Load® Headspace Comparator extends brass life, improves accuracy, and enhances safety. The gauge measures variations in brass before and after firing or re-sizing. It allows for headspace comparison between fire-formed brass and re-sized brass.
As mentioned earlier in the thread, I may have over annealed the brass making the shoulder susceptible to collapsing a bit when resizing. (I say this because I have always adjusted my full length resizing die to touch the shell holder and never had trouble in 1500 rounds before) I ordered the Hornady set you linked to a couple days ago from amazon.ca. Kinda goofy...it was cheaper to order the body and headspace kit separately. I have a bit of a plan for the next brass processing session. After watching this video below, I'll remove the firing pin and adjust the sizing die by screwing in and out to achieve the same thing as his Redding shell holder set:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldtbsym650k
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Just a bit of an update. I don't believe my Lee full length resizing die touches the shoulder.
I got my Hornady comparator in the mail.
I took some measurements from a fired piece of Hornady brass.
Primer to Head 0.002"
Comparator to shoulder 1.462"
I deprimed the case and measured again with the comparator 1.459"
I pushed the primer back in by hand and then chamber and seated the primer with the bolt face.
Measured with the comparator again 1.462".
I am gonna conclude that this case has 0.002 - 0.003" of headspace clearance.
I full length resized the brass and had the shell holder touching the bottom of the Lee Die.
Comparator measurement 1.4615 - 1.462"
I also felt penned the shoulder and put in the full length sizing die again. only a very slight touch where the shoulder meets the case body.
I got my Hornady comparator in the mail.
I took some measurements from a fired piece of Hornady brass.
Primer to Head 0.002"
Comparator to shoulder 1.462"
I deprimed the case and measured again with the comparator 1.459"
I pushed the primer back in by hand and then chamber and seated the primer with the bolt face.
Measured with the comparator again 1.462".
I am gonna conclude that this case has 0.002 - 0.003" of headspace clearance.
I full length resized the brass and had the shell holder touching the bottom of the Lee Die.
Comparator measurement 1.4615 - 1.462"
I also felt penned the shoulder and put in the full length sizing die again. only a very slight touch where the shoulder meets the case body.
- Location
- Western Manitoba
Don't lose track that the objective is the chambering and fit into the rifle, not into the die or the comparator - those are just steps along the way, not the end game. A precision target guy might want a bit more snug fit and might even want a bit of resistance as the bolt closes? A hunter almost always wants slick chambering with no drag, so a hunter's "perfect" load might deliberately fit a little looser than a target shooter's? And everyone wants a "straight" as possible, which is not related to headspace, unless bolt face or chamber is cut crooked.
As mentioned elsewhere, many (older?) hunters have experienced messed up ammo, even factory ammo, so some of us make a practice to run every single round that we are carrying, through the rifle, before we head out. The rifle is telling us which ones are okay and culls out any messed up ones, long before we "need" that next shot. Not so much an issue shooting at targets, but I suppose it is a PITA to have an oversize or bent cartridge in a timed event.
As mentioned elsewhere, many (older?) hunters have experienced messed up ammo, even factory ammo, so some of us make a practice to run every single round that we are carrying, through the rifle, before we head out. The rifle is telling us which ones are okay and culls out any messed up ones, long before we "need" that next shot. Not so much an issue shooting at targets, but I suppose it is a PITA to have an oversize or bent cartridge in a timed event.
Haven't overlooked that proper chambering is the goal. While measuring the brass, it is getting chambered multiple times for feel. The firing pin and spring are taken out so it is easier to feel the bolt closing stiffness. I am not sure I agree that chambering every round before heading out is a guarantee. In my case the original problem was too much headspace....and they all chambered fine but didn't fire due to a light primer strike.
After reading all of the above, it is not clear that the OP is trying to sort out the apparent excessive sizing of the brass, resulting in the excessive headspace.
Also, he keeps mentioning over annealing. I don't believe annealing has anything to do with the problem, as annealed brass will size the same; the only thing different would be the amount of spring back in the brass if it is dead soft.
Also, he keeps mentioning over annealing. I don't believe annealing has anything to do with the problem, as annealed brass will size the same; the only thing different would be the amount of spring back in the brass if it is dead soft.
If you anneal, only the neck should be annealed. (Unless you are doing some wildcat case forming, not the case here) If the shoulder is annealed, and softened more than it should, the firing pin will drive the case forward. IOW the case will move forward, the shoulder will be driven back because this will take less force to move the shoulder than dent the primer.
Personally, at the price of 223 brass, I wouldn't anneal. Also because of the short neck, too easy to soften the shoulder. may be wise to pitch that brass.
Just a comment on your powder choice, H335 and BLC-2. I've used both, but I always start with a CCI 450 or a Rem 7 1/2 primer, especially with a starting load. I seem to use more CFE 223 now, or I did, my Mossberg Modern Rifle is in lockdown and will be for at least 2 years thanks to the May 1st OIC.
The Hornady L-N-L comparator is a tool I would not be without. It has solved more reloading mysteries than any other tool on the bench. A GO gauge is a handy way to calibrate the L-N-L tool.
Now if you were having issue with a 35 Remington, I would have felt compelled to give the long version explanation. Lucky you, LOL.
Nitro
