Kill the moose to save the caribou?

IronNoggin

IronNoggin

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How will killing moose save caribou? That is a great question. The logic behind this goes as follows: wolves are a major predator for caribou and another staple of their diet is moose. The more moose we kill, the fewer wolves there will be and the more caribou we will save. So in order to save our caribou populations, the NDP have declared open season on moose calves and cows.

Needless to say, the logic is a bit flawed. Firstly, if wolves can’t find as many moose, won’t they just look for more caribou? Secondly, is this really the greatest option we have to protect the caribou? Killing calves and mothers? I am all for controlled game hunting, but I feel like we have so many more options available to protect our caribou populations and I am not the only one feels this way.

Thousands of British Columbians concerned about preserving moose populations as well as caribou have voiced their opposition to this announcement.

https://www.alaskahighwaynews.ca/opinion/columnists/dan-davies-kill-the-moose-to-save-the-caribou-1.24153859

The related Petition:

https://www.change.org/p/premier-john-horgan-the-ndp-government-save-the-baby-moose-stop-john-horgan-s-plan
 
This works so well, I'm surprised that it took so long for our 'experts' in Victoria to promote it.
Wolves eat mostly ungulates, in areas where they are available Caribou are the preferred fare. Bigger and easier to catch than deer, not as dangerous as moose.
Killing off the easier moose prey such as cows and calves transfers more pressure to the remaining caribou. A wolf's gotta eat.
Taking out your moose breeding stock and new recruitment animals with hunter harvest and unregulated native harvest as well as by wolf predation pretty well guarantees a rapid decline in moose numbers in an already dwindling population.
Low moose numbers are currently putting excess pressure on many caribou stocks, less moose = more caribou kills.
After a few years of minimal caribou AND moose populations the wolf population will naturally crash as livestock kills increase. A wolf still has gotta eat and rabbits just won't do it. They don't eat grass.
So then you are back to the normal balance of nature in BC's interior before there was any forestry or significant settlement, 1900-1939 era, very little large wildlife anywhere, it balanced at the lowest denominator.
As most things these days ( like our lost grizzly harvest) it has nothing to do with science or evidence, this is a political decision. They know perfectly well which groups of wolves are targeting caribou but they are afraid of political backlash if they try to control these packs. Kiss most of these caribou goodbye if they follow this antlerless moose kill plan and forget your opportunity to hunt moose as well.
 
Ashcroft said:
This works so well, I'm surprised that it took so long for our 'experts' in Victoria to promote it.
Wolves eat mostly ungulates, in areas where they are available Caribou are the preferred fare. Bigger and easier to catch than deer, not as dangerous as moose.
Killing off the easier moose prey such as cows and calves transfers more pressure to the remaining caribou. A wolf's gotta eat.
Taking out your moose breeding stock and new recruitment animals with hunter harvest and unregulated native harvest as well as by wolf predation pretty well guarantees a rapid decline in moose numbers in an already dwindling population.
Low moose numbers are currently putting excess pressure on many caribou stocks, less moose = more caribou kills.
After a few years of minimal caribou AND moose populations the wolf population will naturally crash as livestock kills increase. A wolf still has gotta eat and rabbits just won't do it. They don't eat grass.
So then you are back to the normal balance of nature in BC's interior before there was any forestry or significant settlement, 1900-1939 era, very little large wildlife anywhere, it balanced at the lowest denominator.
As most things these days ( like our lost grizzly harvest) it has nothing to do with science or evidence, this is a political decision. They know perfectly well which groups of wolves are targeting caribou but they are afraid of political backlash if they try to control these packs. Kiss most of these caribou goodbye if they follow this antlerless moose kill plan and forget your opportunity to hunt moose as well.
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Ashcroft, what you are describing is well documented. It is called a "Predator Pit". Overabundance of predators causes ungulate population to crash followed by predator population decline due poor nutrition and increase in mange, and rabies. Over many years the ungulate population will come back, only to be hammered again by predators which can reproduce at a more rapid rate than food base.
 
Ladies and gentlemen, I now present you, from the province which declared grizzly hunting no longer "socially acceptable":

Culling moose cows and calves is socially acceptable?
 
I have always been against cow/calf seasons and cow moose LEH ….. makes me sick to see this announcement.
A buddy of mine called me all excited about new moose hunting opportunities for cows n calfs closer to home I told him if he kills a cow or calf this season he's gonna get a boot to the beets
 
We have had cow and calf hunting in Ontario for almost 40 years. The population did increase over that period (with reduced tag numbers), peaking about 2010 and is now in decline. We are just now reducing cow and calf opportunities.
 
Moose are in big trouble here in the forested regions of Saskatchewan too. Wolf populations have exploded In areas and been left unchecked to where there’s nothing to eat but each other. There’s other factors at play for sure but the wildlife managers seem perplexed that their “studies” haven’t helped. There’s a cool old wild kingdom episode that was made near here back in the day, “where men walk with moose”. It’s on you tube, watch it.
Those guys had some cajones to do what they did, they’d be appalled at what game management has become.
 
blargon said:
We have had cow and calf hunting in Ontario for almost 40 years. The population did increase over that period (with reduced tag numbers), peaking about 2010 and is now in decline. We are just now reducing cow and calf opportunities.
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Moose populations increased in the 1980's because Ontario forest management focussed on increasing moose habitat, cut blocks were kept small with plenty of browse, there was an official guide book that specified how to harvest forests to increase moose. This increase in moose population in Ontario has had an impact on woodland caribou. Moose numbers expanded, wolf numbers went up, caribou receded further north.

Forest Management now focusses on emulating natural disturbance (fire) and forest compositions (more conifer) resulting from fire. As a result moose go down and managers hope caribou remain in existing locations and repopulate previous areas. Moose tag numbers are now catching up to this change in forest management.
 
it is non sense to harvest cow and calf ... now if you want to have a predator control with bounty you may need to control cow and calf but i doubt we re there in many places in Canada ...
 
Still haven't seen one moose up on the connector yet this year??
And just the odd straggly deer
No black bear
I 'm still think population have nose dived
There is a LEH for either cow or calf and bull
 
now I don't support a cow hunt but I am fine with a limited calf draw. on average 50% of calves don't make the first winter anyways.

However this can only be done with a healthy population.

Wolves, I will shoot any wolf I see, they are hard on all ungulates.


what the OP is describing sounds like a disaster in the making
 
It seems to be a common theme from BC right across to Ontario and maybe beyond; woodland caribou populations are threatened or gone, moose populations are sinking fast to the point of being very minimal in some areas , all the while wolf populations are increasing everywhere. Wolves eat meat - ungulates primarily. More wolves = less ungulates, not a difficult concept. Hunters or indians killing more moose from dwindling numbers will not bring back caribou numbers. The biggest factor negatively affecting caribou numbers is the increasing harvesting of our northern boreal forests, destroying their winter food supply and enabling wolves to access them easily through logging roads in the winter. Wildlife managers and forestry officials know this but lack the political will to control logging or predators. As this harvesting is unlikely to change, the only effective way to minimize this effect on the caribou is to control the wolf numbers of those packs that access the caribou. Increasing the harvest of cow and calf moose won't provide an effective buffer for the caribou but it will drag dwindling moose numbers down. No rancher or farmer is going to harvest his brood stock, if he kills off his cows he loses his whole crop of calves, the ones that he was going to send to market and the ones that he was going to add to his herd for replacement or recruitment.
 
Jesse Zeeman of the BCWF:

Here is his latest "defense" of this matter on FaceBook:

"Are you a number 1 or a number 2?

1) "I want science-based wildlife management"

2) "No one should hunt mommies and baby moose"

If you find yourself thinking or saying number 2 at any time, you can't be a number 1.

If you eat meat you should recognize the steak you buy in the store is from 18 months old 'baby' steers and heifers, the pork you buy is from a 6 months old pig, meat chickens live 6-9 weeks, and finally the eggs you eat are, well eggs.

The fish you catch and the ones you buy are mommies, daddies, and babies, the halibut and cod you buy in stores are often 'babies', and for a number of species you hunt/trap it is extremely hard to separate the differences in ##### So whether you buy your meat or hunt and fish for it, you eat 'mommies and babies'.

If you find yourself in the number two camp, but you're eating or buying steak, pork, eggs, fish, bears, deer, or moose, it's time for a reality check.

You should also consider, if you were opposed to closing grizzly bear hunting and you said "we want science", and you're now saying "no one should hunt mommies and baby moose", you're in the same camp as the anti-hunting movement.

Hunters don't need enemies, when they have 'friends' like this."

I simply reacted with "NOT buying in Jesse".

Form your own opinions. I have, and am sticking by them.

Nog
 
In the past few years, there has been an increase in number of moose tags issued for the most northern Ontario Wmu's. The locals also say that it is to help the introduction of caribou populations.

I have never been a fan of adult moose season opening way before calf. It does not make sense to take a cow and leave the calf to a death sentence.

Total revamp in next years moose licensing. Should be interesting.
 
Iron Noggin, you are probably too young to remember Professor Tony Bubanek. He was the "expert" architect of BC's limited entry draw system and I believe Ontario before that. In a presentation that he gave us about 1979-1980 ? he outlined using a general open season for two point and spike bulls, a draw for cows and mature bulls and an open season for calves. His reasoning was.....
Protect the mature bulls, they are the prime breeders - true to a point, but the young bulls cover the cows that are missed.
Calves are expendable, half of them won't make it through their first winter, so an open season. Problem is, you don't know if the one you shot would be a survivor or not.
We can harvest excess cows without impacting the herd numbers. Unfortunately a harvested cow frequently leaves behind a calf to die.
His system was based on the system used in Scandinavian countries like Sweden and Norway that have a steady large moose population along with a very high harvest, year after year. However, it doesn't adapt to Canadian conditions. They have.....
No unregulated year round native harvest - no natives.
Wolves are tightly controlled, every individual is accounted for and numbers are held constant. I believe he said Sweden had 26 wolves. We have packs bigger than that.
Timber harvesting is controlled and very limited compared to northern Canada.
His systems were put into place, modified and varied across the country and over time, moose numbers went up and down all over but here we are 40 years later and in most areas populations are much lower than they were then when they seemed so dire. Scandinavian moose were and are managed for maximum harvest. Ours are managed to suit forestry concerns.
 
Win120 said:
In the past few years, there has been an increase in number of moose tags issued for the most northern Ontario Wmu's. The locals also say that it is to help the introduction of caribou populations.

I have never been a fan of adult moose season opening way before calf. It does not make sense to take a cow and leave the calf to a death sentence.

Total revamp in next years moose licensing. Should be interesting.
Click to expand...

Absolutely agreed. Ontario's response to Moose management has been an unmitigated disaster for the past 15 years,purely from adverse political interference from environmental-case Liberal governments until they could no longer get away with it. With restrictions in draw allocations of adult tags,but,allowing tag for calves unrestricted coupled with reduced varmint/predator hunting opportunities,the tick infestations and heavy predation by higher populations of Black Bears,it doesn't take a genius to figure out why the Moose population has crashed.
 
if the BC government really wanted to solve the wolf problem in this province they would institute a royalty program across all areas of concern.
Attach a dollar figure to a wolf hide and you will see all kinds of hunters taking up wolf hunting.
In the end the NDP would be more than happy to see hunting end in this province
Looks like their management method is doing a bang up job of getting us there.
 
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