Hobbyist or Entry Level Lathe recommendations

[Munkey1973]

What would be a good, North American made, introductory-level metal lathe ?
I am not looking to get a professional grade, tippy top gunsmith lathe.... but I would NOT want to spend $700 to $800 on an Amazon Chinese made pile o' sh#t either!

I would like something that I could piss around with various projects for now to learn ... and then maybe someday use that same lathe could have the minimum capabilities to chamber, thread, and crown say an 18 or 20 inch barrel.

What kind of minimum distance between centers? minimum horse power ? etc etc

 

[buckhunter78]

I have an old colchester student lathe. Only as good as the operator. Something old with a gear box. Quick change tool post.

 

[hickstick_10]

I know Trevj is gonna poke in here to, and he will have some worthwhile info.

Theres lots of old Southbends, Leblonds, Mcdougals and Senecas out there that are completely obsolete, but are very serviceable. I like Colchesters as well, but I tend to find them pretty expensive used unless they thrashed. You can get by with 36 inches between centers and 3/4 horse power for chambering a 20 inch barrel that you can't fit in the spindle bore.

A 14 inch Southbend or Senecca falls starts getting into the "too heavy for some guy to drag in his garage easily" size and they can be found much cheaper and often in better shape than smaller Southbends, logans or Myfords. Lighter machines like the old standard modern Utilathes can also be found fairly cheap, and they are pretty servicable.

I have seen a standard modern go for 800$ and it was all there, but your budget is a little light for something decent and ready to run.

 

[bearhunter]

Any lathe priced at $700-$800 would be a waste of money, unless you come across someone just trying to get rid of one and wants it moved fast.

The lathes the good folks are talking about are difficult to come by in decent condition. They often need parts or bearing replaced and have horrific run outs

From your description of what you want to do, you need something that is easily set up for threading and has a useable length between centers of at least two feet, which would indicate a lathe with a thirty inch bed, unless you intend to thread with the barrel through the spindle and centered with at least a four jaw chuck and a spider on the outlet end of the spindle, in which case, a 24 inch bed would work. The thing is, you will need a lathe with a spindle opening large enough to accept a barrel and that means at least 1 7/16 inches, along with a 3 jaw, six inch chuck and a 4 jaw eight inch chuck.

The small lathes, with chucks of five or four inches won't handle the work you want to do.

Now, Chinese knock off lathes get a bad rap IMHO. There are some very good ones out there, ranging from basic manual set ups to units with all of the modern bells and whistles.

Before you dive in, may I suggest you look around for a mentor to learn how to cut tapers, profiles, thread and ream true to the axis of the bore and action etc.

90% of the folks I know that have bought lathes, very quickly lose interest in them, when they find out how much of a learning curve is involved. Then they get blown away by the cost of tooling and materials.

One other thing to keep in mind, the more powerful the lathe motor, the better the lathe will perform under most conditions.

All of this comes with substantial cost of time, money and labor.

Look up Busy Bee Tools. They sell lathes out of China, that do very decent work.

They sell both Back Gear types and Quick change Gearbox types. Both have their pros and cons. 12x36 with 2HP motor, for around $5k, not including taxes or shipping, the last time I looked.

This is an entry level "NEW MANUFACTURE" lathe, with most of the tooling, chucks, steady rests, face plates, tail stock, with spindles and just about everything needed to get you to the point you want to be.

Now, consider one other thing. Where are you going to put this lathe??? It should have a concrete floor to rest on and need 220volt power. Before this, you will need an open spot that's at least 6 feet x 10ft to utilize its full capabilities and store the tooling. You also need GOOD LIGHTING and a soft mat to stand on.

The lathe needs to be mounted fairly high to keep down back strain. The mounting tables they supply are just to low for most folks, when they spend any amount of time on them.

Lathes that sit on a wooden bench can be OK for work that doesn't require precision. If you want precision, the lathe needs to be mounted on a solid footing, so it can be leveled properly to maintain true and cut true.

After all of this is established, there is the learning curve. Nothing complicated, but there is a need to know the basics, such as the functions/nomenclature of each component on the lathe and how it relates to the work you want to do. That's not something you will learn in one lesson. You will also need to know where to look for the information you need.

My laptop, often accompanies me to the shop, so I can access information on how to perform certain tasks.

 

[B_noser]

Bearhunter has provided an excellent summary.
Advice from a rank amateur - any new user would be well advised to start by learning how to SAFELY use a lathe. A lathe can do a lot of damage in a hurry if it snags a piece of clothing or hair or throws a chip into an eye.

 

[Grizzly Adams]

Any lathe priced at $700-$800 would be a waste of money,

Around here, 2000. would be a likely starting place. Then there's the tooling which could quickly double that.

Grizz

 

[mooncoon]

I think you should be thinking in terms of a second hand lathe in good condition in the $2000 range with a quick change gear box for cutting threads and somewhere around 30 - 32" between centers. I use a Myford super 7 with a 32" bed and do my threading and chambering at the tail stock end. I think you would find that a lot easier than threading through the head stock with a 1 1/2" bore.
I think it is a mistake to buy something cheap with the idea of upgrading in the future because it will lead to a lot of frustration in trying to do things that should be fairly easy

cheers mooncoon

 

[FLHTCUI]

http://https://www.grizzly.com/metal-lathes
Give you something to compare to.
Rob

 

[trevj]

I know Trevj is gonna poke in here to, and he will have some worthwhile info.

Yeah, he is...

I would suggest, since you are in Regina, contacting the local Model Engineering/Live steam club there. I'll try and dig up some contact info.

The Estevan Model Engineering Show is an annual event, normally the weekend after Thanksgiving, but cancelled this year due to covid crap, and is well worth the trip. Kelly, the guy that runs it, can be reached at emes@sasktel.net, and like as not will have contacts that would have a suitable lathe at a reasonable price near you, as well as having direct contact info for the Regina crew, if their club is still active, or a few of the Regina guys that are willing to help you out.
The Black Hills Model Engineering Show is another worth seeing that is close.
The shows are great places to meet folks that are already using their machines, as well as there is usually a pretty good amount of stuff available for sale. And you can talk to like minded folks about what problems they may have encountered, and how they solved them... Networking.

There is a tool dealer that is worth talking to, he advertises on Practical Machinist sometimes, Bob Yaworski, his username is bob, with his location in Regina, too. May be well worth touching base with by email. He was importing better than average Chinese lathes and mills, and selling them for lower than average prices. He also deals or dealt, in some used stuff.

I would suggest skipping the bottom rung of the ladder, and staying clear of the 7xwhatever mini-lathes, if you have to buy new, and start somewhere around the 10x20 sort of size. All the info about sprucing up and working over a Chinese lathe, applies to these too, in that they need a good cleaning and some careful stoning to remove sharp edges, but there is a lot more capability in that size for not a lot more money.

It is important to note, that the online guys who tout "American Iron is BEST!", usually live in parts of the States that had huge light industry and lots of not badly worn machines to choose from. It's pretty easy to end up with a worn, or badly broken, brand name lathe, that becomes more work than fun. Condition is better than brand name.
In nearly 30 years of hobby metalworking, I have never had to try to find a part for any of my lathes. That should give you some idea how important getting parts from the maker is.
As if you were like to get any from the Chinese makers...

As far as looking at used lathes. Usually, if it looks good, it probably is good. Ways look consistent from end to end, paintwork in decent shape, clean, etc. It's been pretty rare that first impressions are not accurate as far as the way the machine has been used, abused, or cared for.

Start watching the local buy and sells, craigslist, Kijiji, Facebook Market, etc., and make some local contacts, they will be able to help you out both in looking over a potential buy and in helping you get up and running, as the learning curve can feel like a brick wall, if you are trying to learn by yourself.

Books! Get a used copy of Technology of Machine Tools, by Krar. Senior High School/College level textbook for metal working with machine tools. Shows HOW to do stuff. Machinery's Handbook, shop for used. It is a compiled list of stuff that you can look up online now, from before the internet, eh. Buy a used copy if you gotta have it. The info doesn't change much and the used copies are cheap.

www.lathes.co.uk, has a huge library of machine tool info sorted by manufacturer. If you see a machine tool listed for sale, it's probably the best place to look up the info if you don't already know what that particular make is about, and whether it might suit your needs.

There's a few of my many random thoughts on lathes.
My experience has been that once you have one, and get involved with a couple folks that are also afflicted, they will start appearing all over the place. If you find that the hobby is interesting you, don't be too shy about either grabbing a second lathe, or buying as an upgrade and selling on, the previous one.

 

[Eenie]

Another thing to consider is the added expense when buying an industrial lathe that is three phase. Unless you are zoned commercial, you will have only single phase power. This means either replacing or rewinding the motor, or adding a phase converter or a variable frequency drive.

 

[sean69]

I bought a used Atlas 10F a few years ago so here's my $0.02

1. Look very carefully at the advertised length of the bed - the 10F has a 54" bed but after head stock, tail stock, chuck and tooling my actual max working length is under 36" (depending on the chuck and whatever tool is mounted in the tail stock) Basically if someone is advertising a 36" lathe, your max work length is probably considerably less. New lathes appear to be advertised by 'distance between centres' my assumption that is the centre of the spindle with no chuck mounted to the centre of the tailstock with no tooling mounted. So you will still lose somewhere north of 6" with tooling.

2. Clearance through the spindle bore... you are probably not going to find a hobby priced lathe (you are gonna have to come up from that $800) that will have sufficient clearance through the spindle for most barrels

3. Location and rigidity, as bearhunter mentioned best option is to bolt a heavy bench to the floor, if your bench is not rigid (and level) you will never get a good finish on anything. I would stay away from bench top models and anything with a bed "extension"

4. More power is better, the Atlas has a wimpy little 3/4hp 110v motor .. IMO that is seriously under powered. try for anything north of 1hp , 220v if you can manage it.

5. Tooling, all chucks have runout, so my advise here is get a high quality 3 jaw chuck for most of your work, but also a nice 4 jaw so you can compensate. (Frankly after a bit of practice setting up the 4 jaw I find it much easier to set it up accurately)


Other than that, if you are doing a lot of threading you want a QC gearbox, unless you really-really like math. A QC tool post is a godsend, you will spend at least 2x the cost of the lathe on tooling, a surprising amount of it will be on measurement. If you are buying used, check the backlash in all your controls ... if it's real bad you are gonna be replacing parts.... which brings me to cheap Chinese crap ... don't sneeze at it, having a reliable supply of replacement parts and attachments is invaluable (the Atlas cost me $500, I've probably put double that into it in hard to find- only available from the USA replacement parts)

 

[hickstick_10]

Another thing to consider is a drive down east to buy something used. I saved 2 grand once I ate the cost of a cheap flight and renting a u-haul driving a machine back that could be had much cheaper in Ontario compared to Alberta or BC.

 

[dero338]

I had a King 14-40 for 13 years and when I moved, The buyer wanted it. for now, I have access to lathes at work and don't need one, but I would buy another one new any time over and old one wornout. lightweight lathes are easy to move and install, but can take thinner cuts and slower feed. not a concern for hobby jobs in my opinion

 

[mooncoon]

if the second hand lathe is in good condition, I don't see what you need to buy in parts. I have had my Myford for approaching 35 years and have only had to replace the belt a couple of times. At a wild guess I put about 300 hours a year on it. In terms of accessories, it came with a 3 and a 4 jaw chuck, a face plate and dog, a couple of dead centers and a live center plus a drill chuck and a steady rest. While I use it for rebarreling, chambering and making loading dies for obsolete calibers, one of the more common jobs is making screws for antique guns

cheers mooncoon

 

[buckhunter78]

Rule of thumb in the Machien shop every hp could remove 1 cubic inch of mild steel per minute. My colchester student lathe had a 3 phase motor in it. Swapped it out to a 5hp single phase reversible motor. Lathe was 1200. Another 600 for motor and switch’s. Unfortunately the 3 phase motor was 2 spd. I put a motor in that was half way between the 2 rpm. Haven’t done anything with barrels or anything yet. Haven’t checked to see if my old double barrel will fit threw the headstock, I think it will. Try and boar the chokes out to mod. Just because I want to try it. Then I will cut the barrels down to 18.5.

 

[trevj]

Rule of thumb in the Machien shop every hp could remove 1 cubic inch of mild steel per minute. My colchester student lathe had a 3 phase motor in it. Swapped it out to a 5hp single phase reversible motor. Lathe was 1200. Another 600 for motor and switch’s. Unfortunately the 3 phase motor was 2 spd. I put a motor in that was half way between the 2 rpm. Haven’t done anything with barrels or anything yet. Haven’t checked to see if my old double barrel will fit threw the headstock, I think it will. Try and boar the chokes out to mod. Just because I want to try it. Then I will cut the barrels down to 18.5.

Worrying about metal removal rates is loads of fun for a shop manager to deal with, but a total waste of time in this case.

You will NEVER be cutting at those rates, when you are working on almost anything other than skinning down heavy bar stock or castings in a production environment.
But if you really want to be surprised, you stick a slug of mild steel into a 9 inch South Bend, put the back gear in, and bull low, and put a decent knife tool in the tool holder and let rip, and you would be shocked at what the little lathe can peel off!
Guys who think carbide tools are the only way to make any progress would be REALLY shocked!

For a gunsmith or other hobbyist, figure on a half hour of dicking around getting it all set up right, and a few minutes or less of cutting, every hour or so.
Pretty rare to keep the lathe actually running for any length of time, let alone making it grunt for it's oats...

If the OP has a budget of under a thousand dollars, used, Import, and lucky, are the words he is going to be living by.
If he can come up with twice that, he is actually about where he will start looking at some fairly capable lathes, new(imports) or used(could be almost anything, and any size!).
For three times that, a LOT of options open up, new and used!

The easy availability of cheap import machines has driven the prices of some decent older machinery down a fair ways. Some stuff is relatively immune, among folks that know what they are looking at, and there is a real drop in price for capability if you can manage to handle and move some of the larger machines than the average home shop guy can, as there is far lower demand for a 5000 pound lathe, than there is for a bench top unit that can be moved by hand.

High speed steel tool are cheap, and they can be ground to about any shape and size needed. Carbide can be really convenient, but even when buying cheap, can be a bit frustrating to use at first, as it is really easy to break off edges and even at under a buck per insert, it adds up fast. You won't learn how to grind a HSS tool without practice! Might just as well practice as you go.

Get a couple bottles of cutting fluid. Some water soluble concentrate in a soup tin, and applied by brush, works wonders. Add about the right amount of water and stir, use it. The water will dry away while you are leaving it idle, but you can add a bit of water next time you need. Use a small paint brush to apply.
Or you can buy some pipe cutting oil and live with the stench. Ugh. :/
WD-40 actually works pretty well as a cutting fluid for aluminum.

A 3 or 4 inch wide paint brush with the bristles cut down about half length, makes a great cleaning brush for moving chips around, too.

If you are in your house, get a scrap of the longest shag carpet you can find, and use it as a trap mat, to keep from tracking chips through the house. One chip stuck in her foot, and yer in it deep! Oy vey!

On that note, get a really good pair of pointed tweezers and a magnifier that you can use when picking out splinters! www.ofrei.com search "Dumont". Once you use a GOOD pair of tweezers, you won't ever use that crap from the drug store ever again. Buy a pair for the Missus if she chases after eyebrow hairs, or the like. It will keep her from stealing your splinter pulling pair!

 

[sean69]

High speed steel tool are cheap, and they can be ground to about any shape and size needed. Carbide can be really convenient, but even when buying cheap, can be a bit frustrating to use at first, as it is really easy to break off edges and even at under a buck per insert, it adds up fast. You won't learn how to grind a HSS tool without practice! Might just as well practice as you go.

All carbide is not equal, different grades cut differently in different materials, quality can vary quite a bit...... that being said where are you getting inserts for $1.00??? I've seen brazed tools for $3-$5ish, but never an insert!?
But I generally agree, took me quite a while to get used to carbide (never did get the hang of a carbide parting tool though) HSS is your friend.

Get a couple bottles of cutting fluid. Some water soluble concentrate in a soup tin, and applied by brush, works wonders.

a couple of ketchup/oil squirt bottles from the dollar store when you need to flood something work well too.

A 3 or 4 inch wide paint brush with the bristles cut down about half length, makes a great cleaning brush for moving chips around, too.

DOLLAR STORE!!

If you are in your house, get a scrap of the longest shag carpet you can find, and use it as a trap mat,

I have a couple of anti-fatigue mats in the shop, they trap all kinds of stuff and do wonders for your back.

 

[mooncoon]

. Haven’t done anything with barrels or anything yet. Haven’t checked to see if my old double barrel will fit threw the headstock, I think it will. Try and boar the chokes out to mod. Just because I want to try it. Then I will cut the barrels down to 18.5.

It would be a lot easier to make a D bit reamer in the dimensions you want then pull it through the barrels from the breach. Mount the barrels on the cross feed and the D bit and its shaft in the lathe chuck

cheers mooncoon

 

[trevj]

All carbide is not equal, different grades cut differently in different materials, quality can vary quite a bit...... that being said where are you getting inserts for $1.00??? I've seen brazed tools for $3-$5ish, but never an insert!?
But I generally agree, took me quite a while to get used to carbide (never did get the hang of a carbide parting tool though) HSS is your friend.

Ebay. Inserts being sold stupid cheap in lots of 50 or 100.

Counterfeit? Stolen from work? Surplus clearout? Pays yer money, gets what you get....

Most hobby guys will never really notice the difference between grades. But it's good to understand how they work and how to read a cut chart from the various catalogs, so you have some idea what they intended the best return on investment to be with the particular Grade/Coating/Edge Profile/etc.

I loved using carbide parting tools. Set the power cross feed and let 'er rip! Made thousands of 17-4 stainless washers varying from about 5 to 100 thou thick.

 

[sean69]

Ebay. Inserts being sold stupid cheap in lots of 50 or 100.

Counterfeit? Stolen from work? Surplus clearout? Pays yer money, gets what you get....

Most hobby guys will never really notice the difference between grades. But it's good to understand how they work and how to read a cut chart from the various catalogs, so you have some idea what they intended the best return on investment to be with the particular Grade/Coating/Edge Profile/etc.

I loved using carbide parting tools. Set the power cross feed and let 'er rip! Made thousands of 17-4 stainless washers varying from about 5 to 100 thou thick.

to be honest I never noticed much of a difference in grade either, quality - yes, grade - no .... probably just not enough working with them. Though I rarely chip em anymore

parting tool could be me, break the insert everytime, I have trouble with the HSS tool as well.