TNW 9mm Carbine Range Report

[GerardSamija]

Different ideas of what a 'survival gun' ought to be, and I've no doubt mine is by far the less popular of those perspectives. To many a survival gun seems to be best represented by something slim, light, maybe floats if dropped in a river, probably open sights if any sights at all... basically a bare-bones gun, something which might bring down birds and squirrels, maybe something a bit bigger, while also providing basic defensive power - and the compromise between how much ammo can be carried and how much hitting power it brings to the table is an ongoing debate in discussions around survival guns.

The way I see it, if I were to have just 1 gun and it was to be the main thing keeping me alive both in terms of bringing down food and defending against aggressors (2 or 4 legged), it has to be something more like a Swiss Army knife. In terms of hunting, in desperate circumstances I may have to shoot anything from 10 yards to 100, so I need a decent optic for making precision hits on small game and a well tested range card such that I can drop bullets pretty much exactly where needed. A rangefinder would also be relevant here - so I have one with rechargeable batteries and a large folding solar panel that can plug into, so I'm not left without a rangefinder. A 9mm round drops about half a foot at 100 yards, the difference between a hit and a miss.

And of course in desperate times I'm not likely to be so lucky as to hunt only in daylight. More likely I'd have luck at night, when more critters are moving freely about. Hence the miniature thermal scope, with the same battery as the rangefinder, likewise rechargeable lithium ion. This comes into play for any sort of defensive use at night, providing a thermal spotter for potential ambushes while I'm out looking for groceries or for a better hiding spot. The optical scope won't do me much good in the dark and of course we won't be counting on street lights. A gun-mounted light seems like a bad idea for this as it draws a target on the gun.

But everyone has their idea of a survival gun and that's fine. Any gun which works is going to be better than none at all if things go crazy. I have a slick little bolt action takedown in .22lr as a backup with a lightweight vintage Weaver 4x scope, but I'd not want rely on that for defensive use. No, a 9mm PCC seems about right in terms of all the compromises, a happy medium. And at 59 I wish I could say open sights would be good enough, but that was true 10 years ago, not now, so optics are definitely required. The reticle in my Burris 2-7x was designed for .22lr, but the markings work out rather nicely at 7x with 9mm for a couple of known ranges so it suits this use quite well.

Oh, and I've not had mine apart so often for cleaning. Haven't done much of that. Just tinkering. Making it work better by stages. Haven't met a lot of things I don't want to modify...

 

[Sharps '74]

Like I said - the original TNW concept of an ASR was buried in your list of modifications and add ons.

Your approach has been driven by an apocalyptic fixation; an elaborate evolutionary concept, an ingenious solution for an unlikely prospect.

You have overlooked the utility of a red dot sight, useable under most light conditions (or the absence of it) and suitable for most vision problems.

My military background and hunting experience has taught me a simple dictum - simple is good, or best expressed as the KISS principle: Keep It Simple Stupid.

What can go wrong WILL go wrong at the most inopportune moment. Murphy's Law can be a b!tch, and Murphy was an optimist, according to an Irish friend.

 

[GerardSamija]

Though some astigmatism in my right eye has reduced significantly thanks to a major dietary change more than 2 years ago (decades as a vegetarian, now I'm eating mostly beef), even a 2MOA dot sight is still flaring out too much for accurate shooting. My groups triple in size with a dot sight even at the dimmest setting where the diagonal flare of the dot is reduced. It's just not possible for my eye to pick out the exact place to put the dot on the target, I'm left guessing. Around a decade ago I was shooting air pistol competitively, doing rather well, but I find when I try 10m AP now that my $500 'Olympic Champion' shooting glasses with diopter adjustment and custom lens leaves me unable to put them all in the 9 ring or better like they used to. So open sights are out as well, even with shooting glasses, and without them forget about it, I ain't hittin' nothin'.

So a scope is it for me these days. And I'm fine with that. You can shoot with a little dot sight? Great for you. I don't regard batteries and electronics to be very much in line with the KISS principle, so my scope is strictly optical, no batteries. The thermal device is a backup, a very tough one rated for use on shotguns, and battery charging capability means I can keep it running. But even if that breaks down I still have a bright little scope which will work in relatively low light, if not at night.

I hear you regarding the risks of 'over-cleaning' or doing other internal work. A lot of people do a lot of stupid things without understanding much about what they're actually doing. I'm okay with working on machines. There isn't much I can't fix, hence the choice to be a violin maker - it brings interesting challenges, like the cello coming in tomorrow with a neck broken in several places. I'm unlikely to break something in a gun in the first place, and if I do I'll just fix it, not a big deal and frankly kind of fun. Most soldiers are walked through such cleaning regimens more as part of an overall effort to control their minds than anything practical, while also exposing basic problems in a rifle or pistol during such maintenance. The military isn't terribly concerned about wearing out parts and ruining guns; they'll just requisition more, as government money flows into the military abundantly in most circumstances. I don't treat my guns like that. No motivation to abuse them. But I do test them to make sure they will be reliable, often finding problems in manufacture which can be remedied, preventing what might have become a failure at a critical time.

I don't regard a failure of society as inevitable, nor even very likely. But it has seemed to me that the odds have been increasing in the past few years. For most of my life it seemed a far-off, vanishingly unlikely possibility within my lifetime. Now the circumstances in terms of agricultural reliability, weather, political movements, and reckless government/corporate decisions are pointing to a greater likelihood. A do-everything firearm well set up to support getting through such a circumstance seemed the prudent thing to build, so I did, besides acquiring and setting up a couple of shotguns as backups. The rest of my guns are for fun and pest control.

The concept of 'bugging out' doesn't interest me, seems uncomfortable in the extreme. Most societies have failed over time. Many people's lives have been taken by those who bring violence into those collapses. I don't intend the gamble on the safety of my family, should this city fail badly. Once the pandemic has been brought under control I think the worry will be gone for some years, but difficult times lay ahead. This century will put humanity through some extreme challenges. Seems to me Murphy is going to be busy.

 

[Sharps '74]

Red dots work for a lot of people, especially if they co-witness with irons. Years ago there was a red dot that gathered ambient light; can't remember the brand or name .....

If we are talking SHTF guns, then two of the best are a reliable .22 and a 12 ga shotgun, preferably a double trigger SxS as it is as fool proof as they come. There's a reason British double rifles come in that configuration.

As for "bugging out", here in the Cariboo you had better be expert in winter survival techniques. At the Arctic Warfare School at CFB Churchill, we were taught that a unit was at best 60% efficient before taking casualties from exposure or enemy action. It dropped exponentially after that. I left Churchill convinced that hell is not hot - it's COLD !!!

Bought some reloading supplies today and the clerk told me he recently acquired a 9mm TNW. I asked what ammo he had been shooting and if he had any FTF or FTE. Answer - a few, using three brands of 115 gr, Barnaul being the most reliable in his gun.

He feels 124 gr might have been a better choice and will experiment.

 

[Murray 3-D]

All i fed mine was 124gr. Exactly for that reason. The TNW seemed to prefer it reliability wise, and the same went for the G34 Glock i had at the time.

 

[Can-down]

Can-Down

Sounds like a solution to a problem if and when it occurs. After how many thousand rds?

In the meantime - "if'n it ain't broke - don't fix it!" Unless you want to load it up with accessories which take away from it's intended lightweight and portability as an ASR.

I've handled AR15s with rails and PGs up the ying-yang and can't imagine owning one. A nice, clean, lightweight design was ruined - IMHO. My S&W AR15s wear the original round forestock not for the look but for utility and the tactile feel. One wears a red dot. I put an AR scope on my 2nd S&W AR15 and it has a totally different feel.

One of my pals has several AR15s, every one of them approaching the weight of an M1 Garand with after market accessories: bipods, heavier barrels, muzzle breaks, etc.

He only bench rests and refused to shoot from field positions when we've been at the range together. Not my cuppa tea.

They have a small unit that basically adds maybe 6 inches of rail and makes the nut easier to use and has a locking advantage I'm not sure what the weight penalty would be as i haven't bothered to do the calculations but it's fair to say that it's minimal and not any sort of tactical monstrosity that you are worried about.....

OF course the easier solution is to just check the nut every other mag change and tighten it by hand when you notice it getting loose.

Looks like their new light model takes it down to around 4 pounds!

 

[Sharps '74]

A 9mm carbine under 4 lbs has to be a milestone. Just what it accomplishes would only matter to a back packer or pilot that thinks in terms of ounces rather than pounds.

I'm not "worried" about what people do to their carbines. They can lard them up with all the after market goodies they care to. That's the beauty of modularity. I like simplicity.

There are several 1911s in the house, ranging from a Series '70 'Gold Cup' to a brace of Remington 'Commanders', all in .45 ACP. All wear the usual bells, gongs & whistles save one - a box stock Remington R1 that came with a tight slide to frame fit and a sweet trigger. No beavertail, no ambi safety, no magwell, no nothing but good fixed sights. It is my 'go to' 1911 for sheer shooting pleasure. Eats anything I feed it with aplomb.

I'll be shooting my TNW tomorrow at 50m and 100m. Target will be the full size IDPA. Ammo will be American Eagle 124 gr.

I may consider the TNW extended forestock just for the locking feature - if and when it becomes an issue. Or I'll have my 'smith make me a steel replacement for whatever aluminum part that wears.

 

[medvedqc]

Though some astigmatism in my right eye has reduced significantly thanks to a major dietary change more than 2 years ago (decades as a vegetarian, now I'm eating mostly beef), even a 2MOA dot sight is still flaring out too much for accurate shooting. My groups triple in size with a dot sight even at the dimmest setting where the diagonal flare of the dot is reduced. It's just not possible for my eye to pick out the exact place to put the dot on the target, I'm left guessing. Around a decade ago I was shooting air pistol competitively, doing rather well, but I find when I try 10m AP now that my $500 'Olympic Champion' shooting glasses with diopter adjustment and custom lens leaves me unable to put them all in the 9 ring or better like they used to. So open sights are out as well, even with shooting glasses, and without them forget about it, I ain't hittin' nothin'.

So a scope is it for me these days. And I'm fine with that. You can shoot with a little dot sight? Great for you. I don't regard batteries and electronics to be very much in line with the KISS principle, so my scope is strictly optical, no batteries. The thermal device is a backup, a very tough one rated for use on shotguns, and battery charging capability means I can keep it running. But even if that breaks down I still have a bright little scope which will work in relatively low light, if not at night.

I hear you regarding the risks of 'over-cleaning' or doing other internal work. A lot of people do a lot of stupid things without understanding much about what they're actually doing. I'm okay with working on machines. There isn't much I can't fix, hence the choice to be a violin maker - it brings interesting challenges, like the cello coming in tomorrow with a neck broken in several places. I'm unlikely to break something in a gun in the first place, and if I do I'll just fix it, not a big deal and frankly kind of fun. Most soldiers are walked through such cleaning regimens more as part of an overall effort to control their minds than anything practical, while also exposing basic problems in a rifle or pistol during such maintenance. The military isn't terribly concerned about wearing out parts and ruining guns; they'll just requisition more, as government money flows into the military abundantly in most circumstances. I don't treat my guns like that. No motivation to abuse them. But I do test them to make sure they will be reliable, often finding problems in manufacture which can be remedied, preventing what might have become a failure at a critical time.

I don't regard a failure of society as inevitable, nor even very likely. But it has seemed to me that the odds have been increasing in the past few years. For most of my life it seemed a far-off, vanishingly unlikely possibility within my lifetime. Now the circumstances in terms of agricultural reliability, weather, political movements, and reckless government/corporate decisions are pointing to a greater likelihood. A do-everything firearm well set up to support getting through such a circumstance seemed the prudent thing to build, so I did, besides acquiring and setting up a couple of shotguns as backups. The rest of my guns are for fun and pest control.

The concept of 'bugging out' doesn't interest me, seems uncomfortable in the extreme. Most societies have failed over time. Many people's lives have been taken by those who bring violence into those collapses. I don't intend the gamble on the safety of my family, should this city fail badly. Once the pandemic has been brought under control I think the worry will be gone for some years, but difficult times lay ahead. This century will put humanity through some extreme challenges. Seems to me Murphy is going to be busy.

astigmatism is also a problem with the quality of the red do and how you use the power control on it .. try lower setting and you may find it working better ...

 

[GerardSamija]

astigmatism is also a problem with the quality of the red do and how you use the power control on it .. try lower setting and you may find it working better ...

As I said in the post you quoted:

My groups triple in size with a dot sight even at the dimmest setting where the diagonal flare of the dot is reduced.

This is the same with a Burris Fastfire III with 3MOA red dot, and with a Holosun 403R-GD 2MOA gold dot, both considered middle range quality dot sights as far as I know. I've looked through the $500+ Holosun and Leupold versions and it's the same. Everything flares out even at the dimmest setting, which would be useless in anything but pre-dawn or post-sunset lighting. Dot sights don't really work for me. Yesterday I tried the Burris version again on my QB57 air rifle, at 7 yards in the house. I like to check in on the dot sights every month or so as it's one of the most effective means of tracking progress of my eye health as it relates to discipline in my diet. I'd noticed while out on errands in dim, heavily overcast light that I could make out most of the text on my phone. Eyes seemed to be improved just this week.

Result was that in low ambient light I was able to group to about 1", and with a lamp lighting up the target paper I could shrink that to about 3/4". With a scope on another .22" air rifle I'm able to stack pellets inside a 3/8" circle at that distance.

 

[medvedqc]

glad to hear the diet is working on your eyes.

 

[Murray 3-D]

They have a small unit that basically adds maybe 6 inches of rail and makes the nut easier to use and has a locking advantage I'm not sure what the weight penalty would be as i haven't bothered to do the calculations but it's fair to say that it's minimal and not any sort of tactical monstrosity that you are worried about.....

OF course the easier solution is to just check the nut every other mag change and tighten it by hand when you notice it getting loose.

Looks like their new light model takes it down to around 4 pounds!

Wow, not exactly a fan of its looks compared to the previous gens. BUT with an ejection port that large the spent cases are probably guaranteed to not hang up haha.

 

[Can-down]

A 9mm carbine under 4 lbs has to be a milestone. Just what it accomplishes would only matter to a back packer or pilot that thinks in terms of ounces rather than pounds.

I'm not "worried" about what people do to their carbines. They can lard them up with all the after market goodies they care to. That's the beauty of modularity. I like simplicity.

There are several 1911s in the house, ranging from a Series '70 'Gold Cup' to a brace of Remington 'Commanders', all in .45 ACP. All wear the usual bells, gongs & whistles save one - a box stock Remington R1 that came with a tight slide to frame fit and a sweet trigger. No beavertail, no ambi safety, no magwell, no nothing but good fixed sights. It is my 'go to' 1911 for sheer shooting pleasure. Eats anything I feed it with aplomb.

I'll be shooting my TNW tomorrow at 50m and 100m. Target will be the full size IDPA. Ammo will be American Eagle 124 gr.

I may consider the TNW extended forestock just for the locking feature - if and when it becomes an issue. Or I'll have my 'smith make me a steel replacement for whatever aluminum part that wears.

Sounds good.

 

[GerardSamija]

glad to hear the diet is working on your eyes.

An average breakfast, though adorned today with some chopped onions.

Couldn't have imagined I'd be eating 1 meal per day with a nibble or two later in the afternoon if I feel the need, and that it would consist of beef. Was eating some elk last winter but Famous Foods apparently lost their supplier. They still have bison but I'm not a huge fan, and it's always burger, as was the elk. The chewing has done wonders for my teeth and gums - vegetarianism is hard on dental health.

I'm deeply grateful to JBP and his kid Mikhaila for opening my mind to the possibility that such a dietary change could make such a dramatic difference in health. I'm not as slim as he is, but I've not been as disciplined either, incorporating bits of fruit and nuts and dairy into the mix and even the odd handful of greens. Still, got my abs back after not seeing those for 25 years. Been with my wife for over 21 years, so she's never seen me this fit and is obviously happy about it, though the diet has her quietly grumbly now and again as she's a nurse and nothing they teach nurses indicates that a mostly-meat diet could possibly be a good thing. Dietary science really needs to catch up with the times.

And yeah, my eyes are sharper than they've been in years, whether it's the gradual reduction in need for reading glasses, shrinking red/gold dot sights, or even a crisper image through various scopes which is especially surprising. My work is benefiting as well. Higher precision in my repairs makes for happier musicians.

 

[GerardSamija]

Wow, not exactly a fan of its looks compared to the previous gens. BUT with an ejection port that large the spent cases are probably guaranteed to not hang up haha.

Looks like a standard ASR port, I think. Looks like much of the weight reduction could be accomplished if one were to take their normal model to the mill, hollowing out the odd thing here and there. Not it's worth the added flex and potential for greater fragility for about a pound of weight reduction. I'd love to see a collaboration between ECCO Machine and TNW for a project sometime. His folding semi-auto 9mm carbine weighs 3.52lbs unloaded and doing a much, much better job of the folding concept that KelTec, it seems a design worth refining further and actually putting on the market:

A solidly made side-folding scope mount would remove the folding with optics mounted issue. KelTec resolved that with a rotating barrel sleeve which seems kind of gimmicky, especially since it forces use of a dot or a scout scope with long eye relief. Change it to hosting Glock magazines, or even a larger well with drop-in adapters for various mags, and this would likely become a front runner in the PCC world. But I guess I'm wandering off topic... Just seems to me there is enough similarity between this and the ASR that some sort of combined project could be viable. Using standard Mil-spec stocks would likely improve marketability.

 

[Sharps '74]

Wow, not exactly a fan of its looks compared to the previous gens. BUT with an ejection port that large the spent cases are probably guaranteed to not hang up haha.

Doesn't look any larger than what I have on mine. The lightweight appears to be as a result of milling out the rail.

 

[Sharps '74]

Snow forecast for tomorrow so I went to the range today. No wind, +2C. The 25m target stand was frozen to the ground, so I shot at that distance.

Results:

- 10 rds offhand in a 3-1/2"group, centred in the 'A' zone of the IPSC target.

Then I shot at 100m from the military x-legged sitting position. I didn't want to go prone on the cold cement as I had forgotten my shooting mat.

- 10 rds in a 7-1/4" group, all but three in the IPSC 'A' zone.

Those I attribute to sloppy trigger work on my part. Oddly, the point of impact was slightly higher by 4" than at 25m.

I then proceeded to ring the 10" x12" 100m gong off hand, holding at 6 o'clock on it. This is well within my expectations of the carbine - minute of steel target at 100m.

Unlike my previous range time, I suffered three stovepipes, all with Glock mags. So what changed .... ? One thing. I added an SOG butt pad extender from one of my AR15s and I think that in combination with a winter jacket had a softening effect on the recoil impulse.

Only way to prove that will be to remove it and repeat the exercise when I don't have cold hands.

 

[Sharps '74]

I just read a review of the TNW 2 stage trigger. It has a definite 'set' to it before final let off.

That's exactly the feel I have in mine! The first time an IPSC pal dry fired mine, he commented on the 'set' before let off. I know him to have excellent trigger control so I value his input.

Today when I shot, I definitely took advantage of the 'set', particularly at 100m.

I don't see the point of investing $120 for a replacement that doesn't offer more than I've got already.

"If'n it ain't broke - don't fix it!"

 

[Sharps '74]

Looks like a standard ASR port, I think. Looks like much of the weight reduction could be accomplished if one were to take their normal model to the mill, hollowing out the odd thing here and there. Not it's worth the added flex and potential for greater fragility for about a pound of weight reduction. I'd love to see a collaboration between ECCO Machine and TNW for a project sometime. His folding semi-auto 9mm carbine weighs 3.52lbs unloaded and doing a much, much better job of the folding concept that KelTec, it seems a design worth refining further and actually putting on the market:

A solidly made side-folding scope mount would remove the folding with optics mounted issue. KelTec resolved that with a rotating barrel sleeve which seems kind of gimmicky, especially since it forces use of a dot or a scout scope with long eye relief. Change it to hosting Glock magazines, or even a larger well with drop-in adapters for various mags, and this would likely become a front runner in the PCC world. But I guess I'm wandering off topic... Just seems to me there is enough similarity between this and the ASR that some sort of combined project could be viable. Using standard Mil-spec stocks would likely improve marketability.

Interesting design! But my TNW shoots that size group at 100m and a fraction of that at 15m.

 

[Sharps '74]

Another range trip with my TNW 9mm carbine .... This time to prove it's reliability with the SOG rubber butt pad removed and to see how it performs at 50m.

Out of 50 rds fired (American Eagle 124 gr) I had one FTE stovepipe on the 9th rd with the SGM mag that came with the gun. 40 rds thru' four Glock mags (10 rds each) cycled flawlessly. The failure might have been me getting lax on pulling the gun tight to my shoulder. It would appear that the SOG rubber butt pad is a detriment, softening recoil impulse.

Accuracy:

- at 20m it is right on POA producing 1-1/2" groups off hand. Better than my first sub-2" groups off hand.

Now it gets interesting ....

- at 50m (this time from the bench) it put 8 rds into a 2" group! There were 2 flyers outside of the 3-1/2" black bull that I'll blame on poor trigger control wearing gloves. I missed the trigger 'set' before final let off that is very noticeable without gloves.

- with the same sight setting as at 20-25m it grouped 4-1/2" high at 50m. I already proved that it shot 4" high at 100m so I'm learning about 9mm trajectory.

This exceeds my hopes and expectations of the carbine.

 

[Murray 3-D]

3-5 MOA seems to be the norm for good PCCs. I notice the MOA tends to stretch noticeably between 50m and 100m's. My JRC will pattern 2-3 MOA at 50m but opens up to 3-4 MOA at 100m haha. Like u im pretty content with that given 9mm ballistics. Basically any small game inside of 100m's is running a high chance of collecting a 9mm round from me lol.