MAGNUM primers question.

[Burton Urnie]

Does all loads using ball powders need magnum primers?
I used H380 in my 22-250 and 220 swift with the WLR primers and had great performance.
The load I'm starting now is using a powder with a burn rate similar to H4831 and H450.
It is 47SB (ball powder offered by higginsons years ago) I've been loading in 303B. With a cast 185gr .

 

[yomomma]

Our local powder guru, Ganderite, should be by shortly. He usually says ball powder is harder to ignite.

 

[B]

Not needed but they do seem to help in a lot of ways. Better and more consistent velocity, less temperature sensitivity for instance. That applies to nearly all powders IME, though some simply don't like them in some loads.

 

[Janeau]

No - definitely not. H335 in .223 is ONE example. Magnum primer do rise pressure and use them only when recommended for a specific load - bullet combinaison based on reputable data. It always amaze me how many guys substitute components - including bullets- primer on published data.

 

[wasa]

After having a lot of problems with ball powder in my 7.62x54R loads I switched to magnum primers on the advice of people on CGN. Never had a problem with those loads ever since. I'm a firm believer in magnum primers for ball powders (at the low end of the published powder loads of course!)

 

[BigRobb]

The number one difference in general between a magnum rifle primer and a regular rifle primer is cup thickness. The magnum being thicker. As far as how hot they are, it differs from one manufacturer to the next.
Brand “A” large rifle primer could very well be “hotter” than brand “B” large rifle magnum primer.
That being said, I’ve heard the Winchester primers burn hot. I don’t use them anymore because they are very slightly smaller diameter in LR and don’t seem to seal as well when loads get up there.

 

[Freyr_255]

In my 223 with h4895 I initially used magnums because of a shortage. When I switched to regular primers because I had a tough time getting a good loading, I gained 200fps with the same loading as the mags. So clearly they do change burn dynamics. Now I'm using regular on h335 and my gun likes it a lot more for accuracy.

 

[Boomer]

So there is more to the question than just which primer is suitable for which powder. The question also comes down to the amount of powder in the specific cartridge, and the temperature at which it will be fired. If the temperature drops below -20, IMHO a magnum primer is always a good choice. But if you load a large volume of ammo at one time, you might not know what temperature you'll shoot it in. While there is some truth to school of thought that says the least about of primer brisance that reliably ignites the powder is likely to produce the best accuracy, A) its not universally true, B) its not true under all conditions of temperature and humidity, and C) accurate loads can be developed with magnum primers just as they are with standard primers. If my ammunition was to be subject to high heat, I probably would be less inclined to use magnum primers, but I live in northern Canada not central Australia. Even when cast bullet loads are put together with easy to light pistol powders, the magnum primer ensured good ignition when the small amount of powder lies along the side of the case, and the primer flash runs across the top of it. A magnum primer ensures the air space is filled with fire, the entire powder charge is ignited, and good accuracy is the result. Consider as well that the priming mixture that is used in mil-spec primers is a magnum equivalent mixture, and these are expected to work in all conditions on the planet.

 

[Boomer]

The number one difference in general between a magnum rifle primer and a regular rifle primer is cup thickness. The magnum being thicker. As far as how hot they are, it differs from one manufacturer to the next.
Brand “A” large rifle primer could very well be “hotter” than brand “B” large rifle magnum primer.
That being said, I’ve heard the Winchester primers burn hot. I don’t use them anymore because they are very slightly smaller diameter in LR and don’t seem to seal as well when loads get up there.

I've found that Remington primers are also undersized relative to CCI and Federal. I disagree that cup thickness is the primary difference between magnum and standard primers, although CCI cups seem to be the thickest in the industry; the amount of brisance is the difference. Prior to the introduction of Federal 215s, it was common to to put a small "booster charge" of Bullseye under the main powder charge in big cases like the .378 and .460 Weatherby in order to ensure reliable ignition. That didn't have much to do with cup thickness. Not all magnum primers from all manufactures are equally hot, but then neither are all standard primers, but all magnum primers are hotter than all standard primers. At one time Winchester did not make a magnum primer, but their primer was designed to reliably ignite their ball powders, perhaps that is where you got the idea that their standard primers were hotter. Now that they market a magnum primer, I don't know if they have backed off the heat of their standard primer, I haven't used them for quite a while but atone time a Winchester primer could be reliably used in all conditions.

 

[nowarningshot]

If your working up, there is nothing stopping you from doing that with a magnum primer. I use that shiz in everything.

 

[Ganderite]

Ball powders are harder to ignite, because of the coatings used.

Ignition is a function of temperature and pressure.

Pressure depends on how full is the case? and how heavy is the bullet? How firm is the crimp?

The worst situation is a light bullet over a light load, no crimp.

You originally used a Winchester primer. Winchester loads their ammo with Olin (ball) powders, so the standard Winchester primer is made hot enough to ignite ball powders.

A magnum primer burns longer and helps boost temperature and pressure. If you use magnum (or a Winchester) primer you are improving ignition - a good thing.

With many hunting loads (full case, heavy bullet) a regular primer will work just fine. The problem is that you can't tell how close you are to failure. One cold day, on a hunt, you might find out.

 

[mimile]

Ball powders are harder to ignite, because of the coatings used.

Ignition is a function of temperature and pressure.

Pressure depends on how full is the case? and how heavy is the bullet? How firm is the crimp?

The worst situation is a light bullet over a light load, no crimp.

You originally used a Winchester primer. Winchester loads their ammo with Olin (ball) powders, so the standard Winchester primer is made hot enough to ignite ball powders.

A magnum primer burns longer and helps boost temperature and pressure. If you use magnum (or a Winchester) primer you are improving ignition - a good thing.

With many hunting loads (full case, heavy bullet) a regular primer will work just fine. The problem is that you can't tell how close you are to failure. One cold day, on a hunt, you might find out.

Ganderite,
Quite often I watch GunBlue490 on youtube. He said that magnum primers are not needed, even for ball powders, unless you use more than 60 grains of powder. Do you agree with this statement?

 

[Boomer]

Ganderite,
Quite often I watch GunBlue490 on youtube. He said that magnum primers are not needed, even for ball powders, unless you use more than 60 grains of powder. Do you agree with this statement?

I saw that as well. Gunblue490 has too much experience to be discounted, and he is a source of much good information, but I don't know how he came to believe that. Perhaps because he's used Winchester standard primers that were formulated for use with ball powders, in preference to others.

 

[Janeau]

Ball powders are harder to ignite, because of the coatings used.

Ignition is a function of temperature and pressure.

Pressure depends on how full is the case? and how heavy is the bullet? How firm is the crimp?

The worst situation is a light bullet over a light load, no crimp.

You originally used a Winchester primer. Winchester loads their ammo with Olin (ball) powders, so the standard Winchester primer is made hot enough to ignite ball powders.

A magnum primer burns longer and helps boost temperature and pressure. If you use magnum (or a Winchester) primer you are improving ignition - a good thing.

With many hunting loads (full case, heavy bullet) a regular primer will work just fine. The problem is that you can't tell how close you are to failure. One cold day, on a hunt, you might find out.

If a magnum primer is not called for in know - proven data - there is no need for it. Using magnum primer when not called for in a know load, will only raise pressure for no gain. Magnum primer were made for cartridge that use a lot of powder in the 60 + powder range.

Not for what the OP use, 22-250 and 220 switft caliber. The most accurate primer...are BR primer and those are not magnum. Most accurate benchrest caliber even use a smaller flash hole - look at 6 ppc - 6 BR - .308 Palma to name a few, with regular BR primer.

In some match load..we even use a paper shield inside the case before charging powder to reduce the amount of ´spark’ to allow a more uniform burn. Quite the contrary of what a magnum does..many time..less of a good thing is better..

 

[bearhunter]

Ball powders are harder to ignite, because of the coatings used.

Ignition is a function of temperature and pressure.

Pressure depends on how full is the case? and how heavy is the bullet? How firm is the crimp?

The worst situation is a light bullet over a light load, no crimp.

You originally used a Winchester primer. Winchester loads their ammo with Olin (ball) powders, so the standard Winchester primer is made hot enough to ignite ball powders.

A magnum primer burns longer and helps boost temperature and pressure. If you use magnum (or a Winchester) primer you are improving ignition - a good thing.

With many hunting loads (full case, heavy bullet) a regular primer will work just fine. The problem is that you can't tell how close you are to failure. One cold day, on a hunt, you might find out.

You can lead them to the water, but that doesn't mean they will drink.

 

[Boomer]

If a magnum primer is not called for in know - proven data - there is no need for it. Using magnum primer when not called for in a know load, will only raise pressure for no gain. Magnum primer were made for cartridge that use a lot of powder in the 60 + powder range.

Not for what the OP use, 22-250 and 220 switft caliber. The most accurate primer...are BR primer and those are not magnum. Most accurate benchrest caliber even use a smaller flash hole - look at 6 ppc - 6 BR - .308 Palma to name a few, with regular BR primer.

In some match load..we even use a paper shield inside the case before charging powder to reduce the amount of ´spark’ to allow a more uniform burn. Quite the contrary of what a magnum does..many time..less of a good thing is better..

That all goes out the window when its cold outside, you're using ball powder, or you're loading brass with more than 50 grs of powder. Are your handloads for benchrest or hunting? I'd sooner use magnum primers in either the .22-250 or the Swift, or in my .223 for that matter, if I was calling coyotes during the winter. Because I am never sure when my ammo will be used, I use magnum primers in everything, and with the majority of my loads, I can count on 3 shot MOA groups.

 

[Janeau]

That all goes out the window when its cold outside, you're using ball powder, or you're loading brass with more than 50 grs of powder. Are your handloads for benchrest or hunting? I'd sooner use magnum primers in either the .22-250 or the Swift, or in my .223 for that matter, if I was calling coyotes during the winter. Because I am never sure when my ammo will be used, I use magnum primers in everything, and with the majority of my loads, I can count on 3 shot MOA groups.[/QUOTE

Worked in the Arctic for a few years with scientists doing wildlife sampling. They were using standard .223- .308 factory ammo. We are talking -30 c all day long, sitting in a magazine exposed to cold.

I do hunt coyote in winter and use .223 / H335 with standard primer. The fact that you use magnum primer does not mean your reload will not perform with standard primer. It’s in your thinking that magnum is needed in cold weather. Military ammo is not divided in winter and summer load. GI using the 30/06 in the Garand in Europe and in Korea used standard ball load - not modified ammo with magnum primer.

It is a urban myth that you need a magnum primer in load used in winter. I have yet to see a reloading manual or publication that have summer and winter load and, commercial ammo loaded offering with two different primer - one winter and the other summer.

If published data does not call for it, it’s not needed.

 

[bigedp51]

If a magnum primer is not called for in know - proven data - there is no need for it. Using magnum primer when not called for in a know load, will only raise pressure for no gain. Magnum primer were made for cartridge that use a lot of powder in the 60 + powder range.

At the Lake City Army Ammunition Plant magnum primers are used in all 5.56 and 7.62 ammunition. Ball powders are double base powders containing nitroglycerin that makes the powder burn hotter. To lower the peak flame temperature deterrent coatings are added to the powder that makes them burn slower and harder to ignite.

In the Hornady 10th addition the .308 load data uses a Federal 210 primer that is a standard primer. But in the service rifle loading for the 7.62 they use a Winchester WLR that is designed to ignite their Winchester double base powders.

In my Winchester 94 30-30 Trapper Model with a 16 1/2 inch barrel, I use a magnum primer to help ignite and burn as much of the Winchester 748 powder as possible. And I also use a magnum primer with all my rifle Winchester ball powder loads. And my older reloading manuals recommend magnum primers with Winchester ball powders.

So if you notice the older and chronologically gifted reloaders here recommend using magnum primers with hard to ignite double base powders. So why argue with the type primers the military and older and chronologically gifted reloaders use.

And now some flash photos of primers at the link below. Look at the Remington 7 1/2 and 9 1/2 primer photos and remember these primers were used to ignite Winchester ball powders at Lake City when Remington ran Lake City.

Primer Flash Test Photos
https://www.6mmbr.com/primerpix.html

And the reloading manuals also tell you any time you change a reloading componet to reduce the load 10% and work up again. And the image below from the Sierra manual shows the pressure differences between primers. And as you can see the bottom Winchester and CCI 34 magnum primer are hotter. And the CCI #34 primer is what is used at Lake City in their 7.62 ammunition to light off Winchester ball powders.

Signed
Chronologically gifted

 

[Kelly Timoffee]

And one manufacturers magnum may be of less intensity than the other manufacturers regular.

 

[bigedp51]

And one manufacturers magnum may be of less intensity than the other manufacturers regular.

The Remington engineers were listening to the Doors song "Light my Fire" when they developed the 7 1/2 primer.

CCI BR4 Small rifle primer

Remington 7 1/2 Small Rifle primer.

The sad part is I gave my son my 1972 Dual 1229 turntable and all my vinyl records. I should have traded him for some magnum primers.