Short barrel deer rifle - .300 blackout?
- Thread starter Astute Observer
- Start date
- Location
- Southern Vancouver Island
Eh mon, dis thread need a tune to get a wee bit happier. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zvl8pzXoXww
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zvl8pzXoXww
rommelrommel
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
I'm sure you can direct me to the post advocating using cheap bulk 223 that I made. I guess I may as well assume you're using the most poorly suited ammo too.
Where did I say "you?" My point is that the vast majority that head out hunting with any rifle, barely practice and use the cheapest ammo they can find at Canadian Tire... which would be Winchester White Box 45 grain SP, with which they almost never practice... the problem with these discussions is that they are taking place on CGN where most of us understand ballistics, and reload, and have some degree of hunting experience... that is not representative of the average Canadian hunter... sad to say.
Johnn Peterson
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Chemainus B.C.
rifleman762
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Southern Alberta
No, no they don't. I've never met a hunter who does that.
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
Really. I know people who have no idea how to zero a rifle, don't have any idea how to compensate for wind, are poor at range estimation, don't understand trajectory relative to their actual load, don't know the difference between a game bullet and a varmint bullet, have never heard of parallax, and so on. I was asked by one fellow to zero his rifle for him, and received a blank stare when I told him that because of our different builds and the difference in the shape of our faces, my zero might be his zero. I agreed to try and do something for his, and why not I like shooting, that's when he gave me a handful of mismatched ammo of various manufactures, ages, and condition; some round nose, some PSP. I got his rifle, an Axis in .308 with a cheap 3-9X scope that came with the rifle, so it would print on my 8.5"X11" targets. He thought the 3 shot 4" group at 100 was phenomenal. Given the ammo, it probably was, and I wouldn't have held out out much hope of making a 200 yard shot. Who knows were that thing shot for him.
Then there are knowledgeable riflemen who shy away from practicing shooting from field positions that are more difficult to shoot from like offhand and kneeling or even sitting supported, because they know they won't shoot well from these positions. These guys might shoot good groups from the bench or from prone with a bi-pod, but have little experience making a snap shot, thinking if the game is close enough for that its a gimme. Its not. I get that if the wind is blowing hard enough that you can't hold a high position, you'll shoot from lower positions that day, but unless you're shooting from a well equipped blind, chances are you won't have a benchrest in the field. Maybe the days that the wind is blowing is a good day to go into the bush, where the effect of the wind on the shooter is mitigated and practice snap shooting at close range. Maybe on the days that the wind is blowing its an opportunity to to check your wind calls at the ranges you anticipate shooting from. There are lots of "experienced" hunters who lower their rifles after firing each shot rather than working the action at the shoulder, its never occurred to them to do otherwise.
These things can be overcome, but they won't be overcome by people who don't understand the problem. As with most human endeavors, in shooting its the enthusiast who performs the best, across the broadest range of circumstances.
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Majority of the hunters that don't know how to zero, don't practice, use cheap ammo and all that are using 30-06/270/7x57/300WM etc. "Standard" big game hunting cartridges. I'm at the range more days than I am not and this is what I see when hunting season approaches.
rifleman762
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Southern Alberta
Usually when I meet less knowledgeable gun owners who have marksmanship trouble, it's not a guy with 223. It's someone who sneers at any cartridge without the word "Magnum" in the name. And brags about how much his rifle and ammo cost. But has a cheap scope. And then flinches real bad. Everyone I've met who hunts AND owns a 223 is good at shooting. Some non-hunter gun owners who just enjoy blasting cheap 223 FMJ (not judging, I also enjoy that) are not. Just my experience in this neck of the woods. YMMV. But I think we've digressed badly from the original conversation.
- Location
- Blaster land, Okanagan BC
Its kinda comical going to the gun range in the late summer just before hunting season begins...I'll make a bet that half of the people sighting in their rifle would have a hard time keep 3 shots within 4 inches @ 100yards
Haha, very true. I don’t go to the range as much as I used to but I go consistently all year, I only run into other people in the fall sighting in or I see the targets that they left behind on the backers at 100y & 200y. They aren’t very encouraging looking groups a lot of the time.
I don't think your experience is reflective of what is really out there... nice that you know a bunch of dedicated and knowledgeable hunters... but unfortunately many if not most hunters barely sight in their rifles... and many that use .223's are doing it because the ammo is cheap... and they are shooting cheap ammo, not handloads with premium bullets. I have had MANY clients show up for expensive guided hunts with cheap rifles and cheap scopes that have not even been sighted in. This fall I had a client show up with a battered 760 with a cheap Bushnell 3-9 mounted, mind you he paid thousands for this hunt and his rifle was not worth $300... we had to sight in, but he was useless beyond 100 yards, and guess what, when we got our chance at a broadside bull at 75 yards his Bushnell had fogged up and he never took the shot... we just watched it walk away... he was sheepish and acknowledged that he was not properly prepared and accepted full responsibility for the missed opportunity and we had a great week together, without a moose... sounds crazy to most people here on CGN... but it has been a regular occurrence over the years of guiding... and these are sports paying thousands to hunt, not just Joe and Sam heading to the camp for a weekend deer hunt. With clients, new hunting partners and friends and friends of friends and their kids, I do my best to help them get proper gear set-up and their rifles tuned and sighted and have conversations about shot placement and trajectory and body posture of the animals they are hunting... but it is appalling the lack of knowledge and motivation to learn and understand the equipment side of the pursuit and the basic skills required to make an accurate shot. For many, hunting is a casual pursuit, they are not all engrossed in the culture and technical side as are most of us here on CGN. That is a reality that we all should do our level best to change... and so back to the subject of discussion, given the above, I would still argue that for "MOST" people, building margin into your equipment choices and your prehunt preparation and your infield decisions is a good thing for the individual and for the sport and for the game we hunt.
Its kinda comical going to the gun range in the late summer just before hunting season begins...I'll make a bet that half of the people sighting in their rifle would have a hard time keep 3 shots within 4 inches @ 100yards
I am a regular range rat....I only see the pre-season sighters during the week before season opener, and those folks would be deliriously overjoyed with a 4" group at 50 yards let alone at 100. This fall prior to the opening of a local deer season a club member came in to the 100/200 range with six members of his hunting party, I watched the show and listened to the conversation while I worked with a few rifles from my station. Only one guy started on cardboard, let alone paper... and in the end of what I can only describe as a tragic comedy, they left with four of the six hitting an 8.5X11" paper at 100 yards... my fellow member sighed and hung his head as he left with his crew.
It was his dad's rifle and his 80 year old father was along for the trip and the hunter insisted that he use it... costly nostalgia. He was not the only one to come with what I consider an inappropriate choice. Another very experienced "techy" shooter showed up with a beautiful .300 WSM, impeccably sighted to the tune of 1" 200 yard groups, I told the group at the pick-up point to have their rifles and mags ready for the trip in as I had "put to bed" some animals the night before and we had a good chance to score before we hit the lodge (cow tags only group). 20 minutes later I had a guy set-up on an island waiting for the animal to cross a small bay at 80 yards and when the shot presented he couldn't find the target... his 6.5-20X scope was set at 20X from the range shooting, he got off a shot and we followed up an finished the cow from what was a poor initial shot. The fellow (really good guy) said later that he had read about people doing that but he never thought that he would do it himself... for the hunting we do in this area, that was not the best choice in optics and any of us can make the power adjustment mistake.
For what its worth, I've also had a Swarovski Habicht fog up on a hunt one cold morning. Sometimes shyt just happens
That it does... considerably more likely with a Sportview as compared to a Swarovski... "margin."
rifleman762
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Southern Alberta
I never said they're all knowledgeable. My point was that the ones I see who don't know how to shoot or sight in are usually the ones who buy the biggest and bestest rifle and then never learn how to use it
. Maybe it's an Alberta thing; they like spending money. Buy the best toys so you can brag about having the best toys but don't bother getting good with it. I get lots of looking down at my Savage 110 rifles from those folks. Especially the "sissy little 243" haha. Last time I was out hunting I met a guy with a beautiful stainless steel, laminate stock 7mm Rem Mag who had never shot it before. His uncle was with him and had sighted it in for him. So I see that sort of thing happen, just like you. But around here it's not often the guys who use lighter cartridges.
